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OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?

 

Greetings All:
?
With possible Perseids lunar impacts visible ~August 12 0h UT, any takers
for a project that may well keep you home for a change?
?
Put those camera's and VTI's to work?
?
We can take it off list or here, your call. This group has the right stuff.
?
Lawrence Garrett
Fairfax VT?
lsgasteroid@...
?
?
?
?
 

Hi Lawrence:
?
[To all - Lawrence has a long history of asteroid work (and has a rock named for him). He has captured several occultations and has a RunCam NE2 and VTI. He's not too far from Burlington VT].
?
Do you know... Is the Perseid meteor stream heading roughly "toward" the Earth-facing part of the Moon? Also, one comment - video monitoring could add up to MANY files with MANY Gbs of data. But it could be a worthwhile endeavor. And yes, any impact really should be video recorded by two independent video systems in order to distinguish an impact from a cosmic ray hit on the detector.
?
G
 

Lawrence,
?
No reason to take the discussion off-line in my opinion, a fair number of IOTA folks have support lunar impact work over the years.? I'd be interested in participating, but my observatory is severely tree-line impacted to the west, unfortunately.
?
There was a related talk on this at last weekend's ALPO conference, day 2--last talk prior to the keynote.? You can watch it on YouTube here, go about 4 hours, 10 minutes in: ?
?
?
Steve C
?

From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, 3 August 2024 12:31 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?

Hi Lawrence:
?
[To all - Lawrence has a long history of asteroid work (and has a rock named for him). He has captured several occultations and has a RunCam NE2 and VTI. He's not too far from Burlington VT].
?
Do you know... Is the Perseid meteor stream heading roughly "toward" the Earth-facing part of the Moon? Also, one comment - video monitoring could add up to MANY files with MANY Gbs of data. But it could be a worthwhile endeavor. And yes, any impact really should be video recorded by two independent video systems in order to distinguish an impact from a cosmic ray hit on the detector.
?
G
 

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Thanks George:

The earthshine area is under watch by the ALPO impact watch at that time, but I have not looked
to see if an impact area " phase form" is posted. But usually if the date is listed, it is indeed possible for
Impacts. Will have to look and perhaps ask for form to be composed. I hope to image at 1000mm or 1240mm,
depending on if someone joins in.?
?

The Az of the moon here at Aug12, 2hUT is 233 degrees, and? Perseus? ? ??
position as produced by GUIDE, sits at 31 AZ,
so 202 degrees apart, would seem correct to me for impacts. Just rough numbers.

Good catch!!
Lawrence Garrett?




From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Steve C via groups.io <conard@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2024 12:43 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?
?
Lawrence,
?
No reason to take the discussion off-line in my opinion, a fair number of IOTA folks have support lunar impact work over the years.? I'd be interested in participating, but my observatory is severely tree-line impacted to the west, unfortunately.
?
There was a related talk on this at last weekend's ALPO conference, day 2--last talk prior to the keynote.? You can watch it on YouTube here, go about 4 hours, 10 minutes in: ?
?
?
Steve C
?
From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Saturday, 3 August 2024 12:31 PM EDT
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?

Hi Lawrence:
?
[To all - Lawrence has a long history of asteroid work (and has a rock named for him). He has captured several occultations and has a RunCam NE2 and VTI. He's not too far from Burlington VT].
?
Do you know... Is the Perseid meteor stream heading roughly "toward" the Earth-facing part of the Moon? Also, one comment - video monitoring could add up to MANY files with MANY Gbs of data. But it could be a worthwhile endeavor. And yes, any impact really should be video recorded by two independent video systems in order to distinguish an impact from a cosmic ray hit on the detector.
?
G
 

Lawrence & All:
?
So my question was... Is the Moon oriented in such a way that the Perseids will indeed impact on a portion of the Moon that is; 1) facing Earth, and 2), on a portion that is not illuminated? [As opposed to if the Perseids approached us from a direction where they would impact the opposite side of the Moon that the Earth sees].
?
In doing a 'quick' search on the Net I could not find the answer to this. But, I did find this animation...
? ? ? https://www.meteorshowers.org/view/Perseids
...which seems to show that the Perseids intersect the Earth's orbit at almost a 90 degree angle to the Earth's orbital plane - and from "above" the plane of the Earth's orbit (ie., roughly from the "North" direction).
?
Thus, visualizing this, it seems the most likely situation is that any Perseid meteors will have the tendency to impact on the Moon's "northern half". Thus, the "dark" upper left corner of the 1st qtr Moon (oriented as seen just looking up at it) will have the most "chance" of "impacts". Note: This is a bit more than guesswork on my part.
?
Moon - 45% illuminated - in Libra (roughly S of alpha Libra). Sets for me at 2:55UT on the 12th. Position on the 12th roughly 14h 35' -19.3 degrees. Will be low in the S to SW after sunset. Any observation needs a rather unobstructed view to the south and west.
?
For me... NO chance to try to capture video from Home (due to TALL trees to the SW). I'd have to "go mobile" (maybe???)
Still, an interesting project. Thanks Lawrence.
?
?? -G
 

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Hello George:

I'm just seconds away from learning the northern half of the moon is target area, and reading more
as I speak, which was why I have been looking for the impact prediction map, but no map yet.
Very good, lots more to say, I've got feelers out and waiting?for writebacks.
This target area can only work in our favor, a two night event too.

The fun has already?started.
Lawrence G.






From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of George Viscome via groups.io <georvisc@...>
Sent: Saturday, August 3, 2024 5:20 PM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?
?
Lawrence & All:
?
So my question was... Is the Moon oriented in such a way that the Perseids will indeed impact on a portion of the Moon that is; 1) facing Earth, and 2), on a portion that is not illuminated? [As opposed to if the Perseids approached us from a direction where they would impact the opposite side of the Moon that the Earth sees].
?
In doing a 'quick' search on the Net I could not find the answer to this. But, I did find this animation...
? ? ? https://www.meteorshowers.org/view/Perseids
...which seems to show that the Perseids intersect the Earth's orbit at almost a 90 degree angle to the Earth's orbital plane - and from "above" the plane of the Earth's orbit (ie., roughly from the "North" direction).
?
Thus, visualizing this, it seems the most likely situation is that any Perseid meteors will have the tendency to impact on the Moon's "northern half". Thus, the "dark" upper left corner of the 1st qtr Moon (oriented as seen just looking up at it) will have the most "chance" of "impacts". Note: This is a bit more than guesswork on my part.
?
Moon - 45% illuminated - in Libra (roughly S of alpha Libra). Sets for me at 2:55UT on the 12th. Position on the 12th roughly 14h 35' -19.3 degrees. Will be low in the S to SW after sunset. Any observation needs a rather unobstructed view to the south and west.
?
For me... NO chance to try to capture video from Home (due to TALL trees to the SW). I'd have to "go mobile" (maybe???)
Still, an interesting project. Thanks Lawrence.
?
?? -G
 

I did some experimenting last year to try this, and would definitely recommend doing the same before the night of the meteor shower. With the .5 focal reducer of the RunCam in place, it's a tricky business to position the moon and find a gain/brightness combo sufficient to see Earthshine without also finding a large internal reflection from any small piece of the bright limb of the moon in, or near the edge of the field of view. Of course, you can/should try various scopes and imaging trains with and without the focal reducer to see if you can solve this problem.

In the end, my mediocre success in getting a decent view and a poor forecast, kept me from actually staying up through the hours before dawn on the day of the shower peak to actually take data.?

...Kevin? ?

On Sat, Aug 3, 2024 at 11:06?AM Lawrence Garrett via <LSGasteroid=[email protected]> wrote:
Greetings All:
?
With possible Perseids lunar impacts visible ~August 12 0h UT, any takers
for a project that may well keep you home for a change?
?
Put those camera's and VTI's to work?
?
We can take it off list or here, your call. This group has the right stuff.
?
Lawrence Garrett
Fairfax VT?
?
?
?
?
 

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Greetings Kevin:

Without a doubt, the problems of successfully recording lunar impacts are equaled
only by how rare these events?are. It is so hard to get all the boxes checked with a moon
In good position (not after midnight) it's a wonder anyone try's. Its the same others
think about our asteroid work, but you guys bang out the best month after month.
I know when I first tried, thinking it could be years before a suspect, I recorded a strike
with a rating of 80% due to light curve matching confirmed subjects, in just 47 seconds!

I have been amazed at just how small telescopes you get your work done with my conditions?
hard in my C-8, and I just might use? 2000mm at first try, small field or not.

But the best low tech is just two people looking visually as a team. Just take 1 hour to watch
and see if hand placed plots match up with a quick look at a clock after a suspected strike.
Text on phone too.
I can supply charts for the dates you might try. I suggested this to my club in December
to a great big goose egg. Trying again with them too.

While success will not equal your asteroid work, you will have seen a geologic process
on another world,? and that bumper sticker for your car, "I brake for Lunar meteoric impacts"
will make a good special order online.?

The August 12 Oh chart is below, don't forsake the moon if possible.

Lawrence Garrett
 

How is the analysis set up? What data rates are we talking here? What frame rate is common for past apertures used?
 

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Greetings All:

Let me try to address these?questions Kevin:

How is the analysis set up?
What frame rate is common for past apertures used?

I do not know if the coordinator for the ALPO Lunar meteoric impact? search is still using Lunascan
to confirm/deny candidates detected, as Lunascan seems to not
be available for download, I can't find it. I do have a copy but have never had the opportunity?to
fully test it with lack of video outside my one high degree positive.

My one positive rated at 80% percent was an easy visual detection right on the laptop screen
just 47 second into a recording despite runcam set to NS1, 1/29th?sec, as this needs to be fast as possible.
The event was just 4 or 5 frames at this speed (can't remember which). Its rated at 80 because there was not a
confirming observation from another observer, or second telescope with same observer at the same site.
I used a Celestron 8 at f/6.2.

The light curve observed must match other confirmed impacts to rate the 80% , a large flash
followed by each frame being dimmer than the one before. Cosmic rays can be much longer and vary
all over the place, easy to dismiss.?

What data rates are we talking here?? (file size?)

While recording these may seem large, time at telescope will usually be less than one might think.
With needed large earthshine the moon is mostly low already in twilight with a short window.
If I do 40 minutes, or 5 minutes file sizes, my runcam, it just seems normal without having to plan
for disk space at all.? I toss the nothing files right away, this is not an hours long project.
I would think the only file/space size one might have is impact watching during a total lunar eclipse,
with hopes of a good hit and someone else recording at the same time too.?

Its really a tight little project, as I like to say, "stealing moon rocks", making use of a short night
that others would pass by, not knowing what was over their heads.

I am producing the Lunar impact phase charts from Lunascan now, just ask if making plans.

Clear skies
Lawrence Garrett





















From: [email protected] <[email protected]> on behalf of Kevin Green via groups.io <greenkevin01@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 9:45 AM
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] OT-Lunar meteor impact imaging?
?
How is the analysis set up? What data rates are we talking here? What frame rate is common for past apertures used?

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