High clouds, but Jupiter was peeking through on our All-Sky Camera here in Westport, so the decision was go for launch, and it didn't disappoint. My only regret was running at 0.5 second exposures instead of faster, which I did fearing a heavier cloud spoiling the observation. The clouds cleared some during the recording. My SNR was 25. Don't think I've ever had a value that high before. 57.7 second DR, 3.1 seconds after center of prediction.?  This was a great coordinated effort. Very happy to be part of this. Seeing the clouds part for a bit, I observed two other events with predicted shadows near my site. The first one was one generated by me using Occult-4 with 11% probability. Miss. The 2nd one (77766) is also in the IBEROC feed with 31% probability, and it was a hit.?
|
Great job Team NEUS!?? While I was out, ready and watching, hoping that the patch of clear sky would stay and play awhile, the clouds moved in turning Jupiter into a fuzzy blob and obscuring Uranus. ? Next time...? - Roxanne ?
On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 01:05:41 AM EST, Steve C via groups.io <conard@...> wrote:
Looks like the NEUS crew came through big time on Titania!? I thought I was doomed when I set-up and could just barely see Uranus at 8x, but I was able to record at 2x.? For once cloud timing worked out for me.
?
?
Steve C
?
|
Looks like the NEUS crew came through big time on Titania!? I thought I was doomed when I set-up and could just barely see Uranus at 8x, but I was able to record at 2x.? For once cloud timing worked out for me.
?
?
Steve C
?
|
George,
?
Yep, that got me up to 134K asteroids--not quite the same as you, but close enough.? Thanks.
?
?
Steve
?
From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, 17 November 2023 6:51 PM EST
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] Occult4 201
Steve:
I strongly suspect that the following is your issue.........
In order to do a "deep search" (meaning, involve a LOT of asteroids in the search), they have to be in your database === to begin with.
There are 3 asteroid databases that Occult4 needs to load. they are:
* Astorb --- from Lowell Obs
* ASTDyS-2 --- from Europe
* MPCorb? --- from the MPC
These are accessed from the Main Page --> Maintenance --> General Downloads
When you update your databases (which should be done every couple weeks or so), you come to a "Convert" stage (see attached image).
At the Convert stage (for each above database) you tell Occult4 some limitations in what you want included in your Occult4 searches. One of the options is the minimum size in km of the asteroids you want involved in your Search. Here I use 3km. If, for example, you wanted Occult4 to only Search down to a minimum size of 10km, of course, you would put 10km here. If you input "10" here instead of "3", the amount (number) of asteroids used in your Search(es) will ["always"] be less.
Convert "builds" the [single] asteroid database that Occult4 uses in each Search from then on.
My guess is in the Convert stage, the "minimum size" you have is larger than 3km.
The following is an excerpt from what I previously posted under the Occult4 101 topic. It tells you how to update the 3 databases and -- if you want -- you can try entering in 3km when you do the 1st "Convert". Occult4 will remember your setting for the other 2 databases.
--------------------------------------------
So now go to download #23 Astorb....
When you select Astorb, it should download. Upon completion of the download, you are taken to the (same) Convert window. What "Convert" does is reads the Astorb file and converts it into a format that Occult can use.
At "Convert" several things show.... (as in your image)....
* Include MPs larger that "X" km. Here I use 3km. But as you know the smaller you go, the numbers increase 'exponentially'. You could try 3, but maybe to start you might try 5 or 6 (you can change this later). [You can revise the diameter setting the next time you update the 3 database files].
* Numbered MPs only (I leave this unchecked).
* Limit to 3+ oppositions (I like this checked). If unchecked the additional asteroids that will be included will have very large uncertainties (ie., huge 1-sigma bounds). Good Luck getting an occultation on those!
*"Mandatory MPs.." This means, no matter what, I want the numbered MP(s) to be included in my database - irregardless of any above specified setting. For example you might want to include some of the Near Earth Asteroids that IOTA likes to go after --- like Phaethon, which are under 3km. You don't have to enter any additional numbers here, but if you don't add some small, important ones, they will NEVER show up in your Occult search (as they simply won't be in your database).
--- After you configure what you want, then you press the "Convert" button. Convert builds a subset of Astorb in a file format that Occult can use.
It should then show you a folder where Astorb is stored. Accept this by clicking "Open". ("Open" overwrites any older file).
You will see a "Convert" progress bar and it should eventually say "Astorb conversion complete".
Next, you do the exact same steps for AstDyS-2 (Convert should remember your selection settings), it will show you the folder where AstDyS-2 is stored, you press "Open", and it should say ASTDyS-2 conversion complete.
Lastly do the same thing for MPCOrb.
The reason you load these 3 files is that none of the asteroid database files contains all the info that Occult needs to make a prediction. For example, MPCOrb does not contain any info on the uncertainty of the orbit - so the 1-sigma uncertainty lines could never be generated from MPCOrb. Nor does it contain info on the asteroid's assumed diameter. So in short, Occult has to draw from all 3 databases to get all the info it needs to properly make a prediction.
Now, why you do MPCOrb last.........
I may be wrong on this - as it's been years since I tried otherwise - but I believe that the last database file you load is the one that Occult uses for the actual orbital elements (All 3 files? contain orbital elements, tho they may be slightly different!). For example, if you load MPCOrb last, your initial "Search" will be based on the orbital elements in MPC's MPCOrb.
You can see the orbital element database that Occult uses - as it's just to the right of the "Search" button when you start a search.
------------------------
We'll do a Zoom session on Occult4 sometime the week of Nov 29 - Dec 1 - at a time when everyone can attend.
? -G
|
Steve:
I strongly suspect that the following is your issue.........
In order to do a "deep search" (meaning, involve a LOT of asteroids in the search), they have to be in your database === to begin with.
There are 3 asteroid databases that Occult4 needs to load. they are:
* Astorb --- from Lowell Obs
* ASTDyS-2 --- from Europe
* MPCorb? --- from the MPC
These are accessed from the Main Page --> Maintenance --> General Downloads
When you update your databases (which should be done every couple weeks or so), you come to a "Convert" stage (see attached image).
At the Convert stage (for each above database) you tell Occult4 some limitations in what you want included in your Occult4 searches. One of the options is the minimum size in km of the asteroids you want involved in your Search. Here I use 3km. If, for example, you wanted Occult4 to only Search down to a minimum size of 10km, of course, you would put 10km here. If you input "10" here instead of "3", the amount (number) of asteroids used in your Search(es) will ["always"] be less.
Convert "builds" the [single] asteroid database that Occult4 uses in each Search from then on.
My guess is in the Convert stage, the "minimum size" you have is larger than 3km.
The following is an excerpt from what I previously posted under the Occult4 101 topic. It tells you how to update the 3 databases and -- if you want -- you can try entering in 3km when you do the 1st "Convert". Occult4 will remember your setting for the other 2 databases.
--------------------------------------------
So now go to download #23 Astorb....
When you select Astorb, it should download. Upon completion of the download, you are taken to the (same) Convert window. What "Convert" does is reads the Astorb file and converts it into a format that Occult can use.
At "Convert" several things show.... (as in your image)....
* Include MPs larger that "X" km. Here I use 3km. But as you know the smaller you go, the numbers increase 'exponentially'. You could try 3, but maybe to start you might try 5 or 6 (you can change this later). [You can revise the diameter setting the next time you update the 3 database files].
* Numbered MPs only (I leave this unchecked).
* Limit to 3+ oppositions (I like this checked). If unchecked the additional asteroids that will be included will have very large uncertainties (ie., huge 1-sigma bounds). Good Luck getting an occultation on those!
*"Mandatory MPs.." This means, no matter what, I want the numbered MP(s) to be included in my database - irregardless of any above specified setting. For example you might want to include some of the Near Earth Asteroids that IOTA likes to go after --- like Phaethon, which are under 3km. You don't have to enter any additional numbers here, but if you don't add some small, important ones, they will NEVER show up in your Occult search (as they simply won't be in your database).
--- After you configure what you want, then you press the "Convert" button. Convert builds a subset of Astorb in a file format that Occult can use.
It should then show you a folder where Astorb is stored. Accept this by clicking "Open". ("Open" overwrites any older file).
You will see a "Convert" progress bar and it should eventually say "Astorb conversion complete".
Next, you do the exact same steps for AstDyS-2 (Convert should remember your selection settings), it will show you the folder where AstDyS-2 is stored, you press "Open", and it should say ASTDyS-2 conversion complete.
Lastly do the same thing for MPCOrb.
The reason you load these 3 files is that none of the asteroid database files contains all the info that Occult needs to make a prediction. For example, MPCOrb does not contain any info on the uncertainty of the orbit - so the 1-sigma uncertainty lines could never be generated from MPCOrb. Nor does it contain info on the asteroid's assumed diameter. So in short, Occult has to draw from all 3 databases to get all the info it needs to properly make a prediction.
Now, why you do MPCOrb last.........
I may be wrong on this - as it's been years since I tried otherwise - but I believe that the last database file you load is the one that Occult uses for the actual orbital elements (All 3 files? contain orbital elements, tho they may be slightly different!). For example, if you load MPCOrb last, your initial "Search" will be based on the orbital elements in MPC's MPCOrb.
You can see the orbital element database that Occult uses - as it's just to the right of the "Search" button when you start a search.
------------------------
We'll do a Zoom session on Occult4 sometime the week of Nov 29 - Dec 1 - at a time when everyone can attend.
? -G
|
George,
?
I'm trying to recreate what you ran.? I find I'm unable to match the number of asteroids in box 3 Select Asteroids.? Where you have 1 - 2023 UV10 (142537 asteroids), I only get 1 - (624884) 2004 MW8 (5690 asteroids).? I've tried all the obvious options, and I can only this many or less.? Any ideas?? Thanks.
?
?
Steve
?
From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Thursday, 16 November 2023 5:35 PM EST
Subject: Re: [OccultNEUS] Occult4 201
Hi Roxanne (& All):
Great that you are "consistently getting results". ...Tho you can't get much with a Mag 10 limit.
I agree. Probably best to do a Zoom session at this point.
Let me look over the weather forecast and pick an evening that seems to be cloudy for (most) all of us. I'll then suggest a time and if I don't get many "please reschedule" requests, we'll have a Zoom then. I'll host - I have a free Zoom account so I'll use that - but we might(?) need to do 40-minutes / 20 min break / then a 2nd 40-minutes. That's been my past experience. 40-minutes burns by too quick.
For the record tho........ There's no question, and no way around it....... Occult4 takes a good chunk of time to complete a Search.
As a general rule I start a Search running then attend to some mundane task in life that screams to be taken care of, and plan on getting back to the computer in 30 minutes to an hour. After starting Occult4, it's a good time to go out grocery shopping (or whatever). When you get back, you ~should~ (chuckle) have results.
Before your above post I tested both of my computers that I have Occult4 on - for speed, etc -- partially for my own curiosity.
I set my Search criteria as you see in the attached image. That being........
* I used GAIA 16 as the star source catalog
* I excluded all events outside of 900km of my location
* Mag drop - Exclude if less than 0.12
* Target Star - Exclude stars fainter than mag 15.7
* Taxonomy = All
* Exclude asteroids smaller and 3km
* Exclude if Duration less than 0.1 sec
Occult4 tells me any search I do will then include 142,537 from the MPCorb database which meet the above criteria
Note: _AS_ you run a Search, if you see something [briefly] appear in the "Search results" [white] box, that event will get stored in memory - ie., added to the events Occult4 finds. However, that doesn't mean that it will appear in the final "List & Display". If you have "Filter" criteria in the "List & Display" the events that Occult4 initially finds will get [further] filtered by the criteria set in "List & Display" BEFORE they are displayed. ?
So.... I have Occult4 on 2 computers - both have the same (above) Search criteria set. The computers are:
Win 10 Home edition -- 3.4Ghz / i3 / 4 Gig RAM (max) / 1 spinning Hard Drive / Purchased Jan 2012 (Thus an "Older" computer)
Win 11 Home edition -- 2.1GHz / i7 / 32 Gig RAM / SSD HD for OS & Programs / 1 spinning HD for Data / Purchased November 2022
FYI.... I do Searches for 1 night at a time (!!!!)
Win 11 - Takes 17.5 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Win 10 - Is 1/5th of the way complete in 17.5 minutes
Win 10 - Takes ~55 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Regards output.......... See the attached image for how I usually configure my "List & Display". The main criteria I often vary is the "Distance of site from path". From a test run I did, as I varied the distance, here's the number of events I get:
NO Filters (uncheck "visible from") - 2,361
250km - 320
80km - 109
50km - 75
20km - 45
8km - 23
2km - 13
1km - 9
NOTE: Depending on your Filter setting in "List & Display", you may see events of "0% Probability". You may think, "I don't need to see those!". However.......
Recently GAIA astrometric data has been incorporated into generating ""some"" orbital elements....... This has had the effect of tremendously shrinking the 1-sigma bounds - on some asteroids. In short, Occult4 may now generate an event where you are outside the main path by only a couple miles(!), and you will get a "0% Probability" listing !!!
If you are capable of going Mobile (or have other nearby observatories you observe from), just moving 3 miles or so will then change your Probability from 0% to 80% !!! So you should inspect ALL events that Occult4 lists. This is also why you should set your "Distance of site from path" to at least 50km.
There's actually reason to keep your search at 250km initially but to explain will take too much typing.
Yes... I'm tired of typing (and somewhat wondering if it's doing much good).
I'll schedule a Zoom soon..............
Happy Shadows,
G
PS: Had clouds cover a 94% chance event last night - moved over 20 seconds or so before the predicted time. Ugh!
|
George,
When you pick a date/time, I can set the Zoom up on our account to get around the free versions limitations.
BTW, reading your comment about the zero % events and small travel distances was a smack-myself-in-the-head moment.? Makes sense...
Steve
Get
Hi Roxanne (& All):
Great that you are "consistently getting results". ...Tho you can't get much with a Mag 10 limit.
I agree. Probably best to do a Zoom session at this point.
Let me look over the weather forecast and pick an evening that seems to be cloudy for (most) all of us. I'll then suggest a time and if I don't get many "please reschedule" requests, we'll have a Zoom then. I'll host - I have a free Zoom account so I'll use that - but we might(?) need to do 40-minutes / 20 min break / then a 2nd 40-minutes. That's been my past experience. 40-minutes burns by too quick.
For the record tho........ There's no question, and no way around it....... Occult4 takes a good chunk of time to complete a Search.
As a general rule I start a Search running then attend to some mundane task in life that screams to be taken care of, and plan on getting back to the computer in 30 minutes to an hour. After starting Occult4, it's a good time to go out grocery shopping (or whatever). When you get back, you ~should~ (chuckle) have results.
Before your above post I tested both of my computers that I have Occult4 on - for speed, etc -- partially for my own curiosity.
I set my Search criteria as you see in the attached image. That being........
* I used GAIA 16 as the star source catalog
* I excluded all events outside of 900km of my location
* Mag drop - Exclude if less than 0.12
* Target Star - Exclude stars fainter than mag 15.7
* Taxonomy = All
* Exclude asteroids smaller and 3km
* Exclude if Duration less than 0.1 sec
Occult4 tells me any search I do will then include 142,537 from the MPCorb database which meet the above criteria
Note: _AS_ you run a Search, if you see something [briefly] appear in the "Search results" [white] box, that event will get stored in memory - ie., added to the events Occult4 finds. However, that doesn't mean that it will appear in the final "List & Display". If you have "Filter" criteria in the "List & Display" the events that Occult4 initially finds will get [further] filtered by the criteria set in "List & Display" BEFORE they are displayed. ?
So.... I have Occult4 on 2 computers - both have the same (above) Search criteria set. The computers are:
Win 10 Home edition -- 3.4Ghz / i3 / 4 Gig RAM (max) / 1 spinning Hard Drive / Purchased Jan 2012 (Thus an "Older" computer)
Win 11 Home edition -- 2.1GHz / i7 / 32 Gig RAM / SSD HD for OS & Programs / 1 spinning HD for Data / Purchased November 2022
FYI.... I do Searches for 1 night at a time (!!!!)
Win 11 - Takes 17.5 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Win 10 - Is 1/5th of the way complete in 17.5 minutes
Win 10 - Takes ~55 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Regards output.......... See the attached image for how I usually configure my "List & Display". The main criteria I often vary is the "Distance of site from path". From a test run I did, as I varied the distance, here's the number of events I get:
NO Filters (uncheck "visible from") - 2,361
250km - 320
80km - 109
50km - 75
20km - 45
8km - 23
2km - 13
1km - 9
NOTE: Depending on your Filter setting in "List & Display", you may see events of "0% Probability". You may think, "I don't need to see those!". However.......
Recently GAIA astrometric data has been incorporated into generating ""some"" orbital elements....... This has had the effect of tremendously shrinking the 1-sigma bounds - on some asteroids. In short, Occult4 may now generate an event where you are outside the main path by only a couple miles(!), and you will get a "0% Probability" listing !!!
If you are capable of going Mobile (or have other nearby observatories you observe from), just moving 3 miles or so will then change your Probability from 0% to 80% !!! So you should inspect ALL events that Occult4 lists. This is also why you should set your "Distance of site from path" to at least 50km.
There's actually reason to keep your search at 250km initially but to explain will take too much typing.
Yes... I'm tired of typing (and somewhat wondering if it's doing much good).
I'll schedule a Zoom soon..............
Happy Shadows,
G
PS: Had clouds cover a 94% chance event last night - moved over 20 seconds or so before the predicted time. Ugh!
|
All,
I received my Astrid today.? Assembly was easy.? My only issues so far:
1.? I cannot connect to it using my Android tablet.? No issue with my wife's IPad and my Win laptop.
2.? I cannot enter a focal length that starts with a 1.?
3.? The Astro color scheme beats with my laptop's display pixels, resulting in areas of blurriness.? The monochrome one I switched to does do this.
Loading occultation planning numbers is a snap.? Prepoints trivial to set-up.? Plate solves really quick.
I don't have a feel for how sensitive it is yet.? I have it on my William Optics SD66 reduced by 0.6x right now, and I rarely if ever use that for occultations.
I just completed a prepoint Titania run moved up 4 days and three hours.? I looks like Uranus was very close to the center when it was half done recording.
Steve
Get
|
Hi Roxanne (& All):
Great that you are "consistently getting results". ...Tho you can't get much with a Mag 10 limit.
I agree. Probably best to do a Zoom session at this point.
Let me look over the weather forecast and pick an evening that seems to be cloudy for (most) all of us. I'll then suggest a time and if I don't get many "please reschedule" requests, we'll have a Zoom then. I'll host - I have a free Zoom account so I'll use that - but we might(?) need to do 40-minutes / 20 min break / then a 2nd 40-minutes. That's been my past experience. 40-minutes burns by too quick.
For the record tho........ There's no question, and no way around it....... Occult4 takes a good chunk of time to complete a Search.
As a general rule I start a Search running then attend to some mundane task in life that screams to be taken care of, and plan on getting back to the computer in 30 minutes to an hour. After starting Occult4, it's a good time to go out grocery shopping (or whatever). When you get back, you ~should~ (chuckle) have results.
Before your above post I tested both of my computers that I have Occult4 on - for speed, etc -- partially for my own curiosity.
I set my Search criteria as you see in the attached image. That being........
* I used GAIA 16 as the star source catalog
* I excluded all events outside of 900km of my location
* Mag drop - Exclude if less than 0.12
* Target Star - Exclude stars fainter than mag 15.7
* Taxonomy = All
* Exclude asteroids smaller and 3km
* Exclude if Duration less than 0.1 sec
Occult4 tells me any search I do will then include 142,537 from the MPCorb database which meet the above criteria
Note: _AS_ you run a Search, if you see something [briefly] appear in the "Search results" [white] box, that event will get stored in memory - ie., added to the events Occult4 finds. However, that doesn't mean that it will appear in the final "List & Display". If you have "Filter" criteria in the "List & Display" the events that Occult4 initially finds will get [further] filtered by the criteria set in "List & Display" BEFORE they are displayed. ?
So.... I have Occult4 on 2 computers - both have the same (above) Search criteria set. The computers are:
Win 10 Home edition -- 3.4Ghz / i3 / 4 Gig RAM (max) / 1 spinning Hard Drive / Purchased Jan 2012 (Thus an "Older" computer)
Win 11 Home edition -- 2.1GHz / i7 / 32 Gig RAM / SSD HD for OS & Programs / 1 spinning HD for Data / Purchased November 2022
FYI.... I do Searches for 1 night at a time (!!!!)
Win 11 - Takes 17.5 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Win 10 - Is 1/5th of the way complete in 17.5 minutes
Win 10 - Takes ~55 minutes to do a 1-night search (found 2,361 events in my test)
Regards output.......... See the attached image for how I usually configure my "List & Display". The main criteria I often vary is the "Distance of site from path". From a test run I did, as I varied the distance, here's the number of events I get:
NO Filters (uncheck "visible from") - 2,361
250km - 320
80km - 109
50km - 75
20km - 45
8km - 23
2km - 13
1km - 9
NOTE: Depending on your Filter setting in "List & Display", you may see events of "0% Probability". You may think, "I don't need to see those!". However.......
Recently GAIA astrometric data has been incorporated into generating ""some"" orbital elements....... This has had the effect of tremendously shrinking the 1-sigma bounds - on some asteroids. In short, Occult4 may now generate an event where you are outside the main path by only a couple miles(!), and you will get a "0% Probability" listing !!!
If you are capable of going Mobile (or have other nearby observatories you observe from), just moving 3 miles or so will then change your Probability from 0% to 80% !!! So you should inspect ALL events that Occult4 lists. This is also why you should set your "Distance of site from path" to at least 50km.
There's actually reason to keep your search at 250km initially but to explain will take too much typing.
Yes... I'm tired of typing (and somewhat wondering if it's doing much good).
I'll schedule a Zoom soon..............
Happy Shadows,
G
PS: Had clouds cover a 94% chance event last night - moved over 20 seconds or so before the predicted time. Ugh!
|
In reading Dave H's comments about running Occult for a month date range... I don't know how he does it. As it takes my set-up (i7 gaming laptop w 16GB ram, lottsa SSD space, no other apps running) about an hour just to run a three day forecast, even with .5 mag drop and a bright 10 star mag limit.? However, I do get a couple of listed results, so that is progress.?
I can consistently get to the "output (list of events) in the "List & Display"
window"? So, would be interested in a Zoom session to work through the next steps.?????? - Roxanne
**
On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 01:46:31 PM EST, George Viscome via groups.io <georvisc@...> wrote:
All:
Some further notes....
Kevin is correct, "It all depends on what you want to do" - ie., how deep you want to search ---- what you want to set your mag limit to, what's the smallest mag drop you feel you can discern, what's the smallest asteroid size to use in a search.... etc.
Some have mentioned that they get an error after their 1st 100 or 300 asteroids. I find this puzzling. Essentially, with Occult4, it should either be finding events or not (working or not working). I can only think of 2 things that might cause this...
1) There's was an initial error in formatting in one of the 3 downloaded asteroid databases. I've seen this happen a few times. Solution - reload the 3 databases. You may need to wait until the next update to a database for the issue to clear.
2) You are overloading the output in your Search.
First, there is a default limit in Occult for the number of events it can find in a single Search. The default is 20,000. This number can be found by going to the Main Menu --> Maintenance, then go down to "#11". I have mine set at 40,000. But as stated in the program, "If the number is too large, the program may run out of memory". 40,000 seems fine for both my Win10 computer (4Gb memory), and Win11 computer (32Gb memory).
You can overload the output in a couple ways.......
a) You are searching too deep. You may need to relax your mag limit, mag drop, and asteroid diameter.....
FYI: The number of events you see listed in the output (in List & Display) is most likely [much] smaller than the number of events the program actually [initially] finds. When you press "Search" the program builds up a list of events it finds ("behind the scenes"), then at the end of the Search it takes into account the "Filter settings" in "List & Display" and displays only the events that pass those filter parameters. There is a way, during the initial Search, to limit the number of events that Occult4 finds "behind the scenes" -- which helps to avoid an "overload" of events. This can be done via a setting on the "Search Page", and is in the aqua-colored box below the star catalog. This involves setting a number in the "Passes within" box (see the image I attached in a previous post). There I have mine set for "Passes within 900 km" (of the Lat & Long of my observing site). If this box is unchecked, Occult4 may actually build a database (behind the scenes) for all events it finds that fall somewhere OVER THE ENTIRE EARTH! I think you can see this has the possibility of creating a VERY large "behind the scenes" list of events - and can result in an overload error. So I would suggest that users check this box, put a value in it (maybe 500km), and make sure your approx Lat & Long are correctly displayed.
Also in this aqua-colored box, set a realistic mag drop, and star catalog mag limit. This will also prevent any overloads. [I've found mag drops of less than ~0.15 mag give me more headaches than it's worth - wondering if the "drop" I see is real or just noise].
Make sure all 3 boxes are checked.
Another way to have a Search hault due to an overload......
b) You are doing a search for too long a period of time.
I have seen overloads happen (rather easily) this way. I know folks might like to search for a month or so at a time. I feel this is NOT WISE unless your search parameters stop at something like mag 11, you are using GAIA 14, and any asteroid is larger than perhaps 20km.
After much trial and error, I would really -suggest- you do the following:
Do your (normal) searches for one day (well, actually, night) at a time (!!!!)
I find doing searches for just 1 'day' convenient. I just keep track of the weather forecast a few days ahead, and if I see the potential for a clear night coming up, I go over to the computer, enter in a Start and End date of the same day (number). I then start the search and walk away from the computer and come back later - when I see a list of events displayed. If it's clear out, it's then very handy to just consult that nightly file. After that night has passed, simply delete the file.
....Or you can do a nightly search just prior to an evening's observing.
"My paths don't match what I see on OW"...........
Again...,? remember the initial output from Occult4 will be based on the MPC's MPCorb database(!), and will NOT be based on JPL/Horizons. There is a further step you must do to get JPL-based predictions. Maybe I'll write that step up later, but it's better to cover in a Zoom session.
That said... There IS a way to get a JPL/Horizons prediction (path) directly --- [usually] FOR A SINGLE ASTEROID.
Do the following:
* At the Search Page, in the beige box, you will see a box saying "Select asteroid or Set a comet".
* Click on the box
* At the prompt, enter the asteroid number without parenthesis (or enter a provisional designation)
* Click OK
* Press Search
IF OW(C) predicts an event involving this [single] asteroid (for the selected night), the event should show in List & Display, and if you click on the row of text the path map that is drawn should [very closely] match that shown on OW(C) --- providing the path on OW(C) is based on JPL/Horizons.
So this is a way you can "test" the accuracy of paths output from Occult4.
FYI: When I get a JPL-based path via Occult4, it almost always matches the path in OW(C) - VERY closely (prividing the path in OW(C) is also JPL-based.
When you get an output (list of events) in the "List & Display" window, be advised that you can refine the events which are displayed by modifying the "Selection filters" at the top. We can cover that in another post or better yet, in a Zoom session.
Lastly..... If you run into an error stating that Occult4 can't "resolve" the JPL site... check your Internet connection.
Clear Skies (very wishful thinking for me lately),
George
|
Re: If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
Steve:
Congrats! I see you got a 1 sec positive (this one being a "good" positive!). (BTW: Hope you are feeling better!).
Chalk up another one to the result of an Occult4 search (this was a "no show" on OW until I tagged it).
I was under solid overcast. Haven't heard any result from Michel - I'll ask. If he observed it, I'll let you know.
Keep us posted on what's up with your ASTRID. I hope I can get one soon (2nd batch)!
George
|
Re: Tale of 2 Occultations (subtitle - Occult4 201)
George,
?
Thanks for this.? It ties in well with my goal of automating the observatory for data collection.? Here's where I think I'm going.
?
The basic equipment list is a TI PD10 dome, Paramount MX+ mount, C-14 operating at about f/4, and either Watec 910 or QHY174M-GPS cameras.
?
Phase 1, which is almost complete, is to be able to collect data without going outside at night.? It will still be man-in-the-loop.? My dome is 20 yards out the back door, so getting to it isn't that hard if issues arise.? The dome reliably opens/closes its shutter remotely with the 20+ year old salvaged windlass mechanism.? It "semi-reliably" rotates--but has one sticky spot when pointing north (thankfully).? If it gets stuck, you can usually reverse to unstick it, and take the long way around if necessary.? Some fraction of the time I have to go outside to unjam it.? The dome reliably tracks the telescope pointing via file transfer from TSX (latest and greatest 64-bit) and DDW (circa 2002 technology) except with some logic issues at meridian crossing.? Other than the rotation issue, the two remaining problems are (1) issues with both cameras (the Watec 910 as-is requires in person button pressing to change exposure/gain) and the QHY 174 isn't reliable connecting over the USB 3 that goes through my Pegasus Ultimate Power box and (2) my point to point WiFi antenna link to the observatory has quirks (often reverts to the very slow regular WiFi, forcing me to turn that off).? So far I am 3 for 4 operating "remotely"--meaning one of the times I had to go out to the observatory to fix something,
?
Phase 2 is next.? That is a three part problem--camera, telescope, and dome.? If I use the Watec camera, I can use Russ's software to control that by scheduling observations (the issue with buttons still applies).? With the QHY, I think you can use the sequence editor in SharpCap to collect images at the required time.? The telescope would just run independently using TSX--I assume that functionality is in there, but I haven't tried to find it yet.? For phase 2, I don't think plate solving is necessary--the MX+ is amazing about getting targets well within the system FOV.? That leaves the big issue how to wake the dome, open the shutter, tell it to follow the telescope and shut back down.? If I can't come up with a way to do that, I may have to break down and pay for the TSX dome control add-in.
?
Phase 3 will be to do plate solves and perhaps adding in some weather monitoring.
?
Once phase 2 is in place, I will no longer be the limiting factor--and I'll want to try as many with reasonable probability as I can.? If only we could get OW files to drive it all (this is where someone tells me you can already do that).
?
BTW, my Astrid kit was lost in the US mail for a week.? Last Tuesday it left Los Angeles for Pennsylvania, and then was not scanned again until today--when it arrived in (drum beat, please) Los Angeles!? But at least it is no longer listed as missing.? When that arrives, it will allow me to do an easier second station locally or to do moderate travel to support other NEUS events.
?
?
Steve
?
From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, 14 November 2023 11:37 AM EST
Subject: [OccultNEUS] Tale of 2 Occultations (subtitle - Occult4 201)
All:
It's a 'good' thing to know how to generate your own predictions in Occult4. Here's a couple reasons why...
Several days ago I noticed a nice early-evening event (7:03pm) when I generated a nightly run of Occult4 for Nov 13th UT. This? involved a 12.2 mag star and 16.2 mag (1349) Bechuana. The JPL/Horizons-based centerline ran nearly over my house, giving me a stated Probability of 100% (see attached).
In that same nightly run Occult4 listed another event - tho this one was more of a challenge. In this case the Target Star was about mag 15.1, and the asteroid - (463) Lola - was mag 15.8, and the event occurred at 8:46 UT (3:46am). Occult4 gave me a JPL/Horizons-based Probability of 65%.
Although I subscribe to nearly all the feeds in OccultWatcher Desktop (and set my search criteria very "wide"), OW did not list _EITHER_ event.
Turns out I had a RARE clear night on the 13th UT.
The event involving (1349) was only 12 degrees up in the SSW which required me to 'Go Mobile' (to get away from tall trees at home), so I drove about a mile from home to a wide open, dark field. I used my RunCam NE2AE and my 12-inch Sky-Watcher 300P SynScan GoTo / WiFi-controllable Dob. It was a bit of a challenge as the outside temp was only 19 degrees F. Due to the cold, I had the scope outside the passenger door of my pickup (warm-inside), with the computer propped-up above the passenger seat, with the screen facing out the window. To operate the computer I briefly opened the passenger door. A Bluetti EB70S inside the truck provided both 120VAC and 12VDC power. Just before the event, I hopped in the truck's driver's seat, turned the computer screen around observed the event in comfort.
Anyway...
????? === BINGO! === Got it! - A nice occultation.
I observed quite a distinct event with a duration of 0.83 seconds (maximum was predicted as 0.74 seconds). There are 2 shape models for the asteroid in Occult4 and I can see how it was likely that I got just a bit more than the maximum.
So after this Pos, I drove home, set up the same RunCam in my home observatory, and consulted my nightly Occult4 list of events. [OW Desktop listed nothing worth trying for during the night].
My Occult4 run listed a couple potential 'nicely placed in the sky' events (for which their predicted paths ran quite close to me):
2:17 UT - I recorded a Miss
4:34 UT - Another Miss
6:19 UT - Another Miss
7:00 UT - Another Miss (tho Occult4 gave me a decent probability of 42%)
8:46 UT......... This involved the above mentioned (463) Lola.
(In between events I went inside an watched a couple movies, and videos on YouTube - )
[As I RARELY get clear nights, I tend to pull "long nights" when it's clear. I know there will be PLENTY of upcoming nights to catch up on sleep!].
Finally (Amen!).... Time for the last event - (463)...
By this time (about 3:40am) the outside temp had dropped to about 11 degrees F. The computer was running in the observatory's warm room (which was about 60dF).
I would have liked to have used my QHY174M-GPS camera for this event, but I'm hesitant to subject a $1300 camera to heavy frost and such brutal temps - so I used my RunCam NE2AE (and I own a spare).
This event (combined mag of just under __15__) would push the RunCam to it's limits - but it helped that the event was 79 degrees up (nearly overhead). The max duration was 2.5 seconds so I figured I would set the RunCam at NS3 (due to the cold temps, I saw little thermal noise at NS3).
And...
????? === BINGO! === Got it! - A bit faint, but a distinct occultation (easily passes as a Pos in PyOTE)
[See the attached for some info/images regarding these 2 positives].
Suffice it to say......... I would have never known about these events if I didn't run my own nightly occultation searches in Occult4. I'd say at least 75% of my positive events are/were never listed on OW.
I do think the Northeast is... quite "overlooked" - as far as predictions.
[...And there's the old addage... "If you are going to do it right, DO IT YOURSELF"].
Disclaimer -- I will admit I didn't search OW Cloud to see if the (1349) and (463) were listed there (still haven't looked) - and then possibly "tagged" them. (I'll try to do this in the future ---- maybe). But... I __DID__ look to see if any experienced observers I knew of were near the predicted paths for these events -- and nobody was.
Moral of the Story --- OW is a Great tool for Coordinating observers, and there's certainly nothing wrong with just trying for events that OW informs you of (it's definitely less effort than running Occult4).... but... be prepared to miss some nice ones.
Sorry for the novel....
Happy Shadows,
George
George Viscome
Rand Obs II - MPC W71
Lake Placid, NY
|
Tale of 2 Occultations (subtitle - Occult4 201)
All:
It's a 'good' thing to know how to generate your own predictions in Occult4. Here's a couple reasons why...
Several days ago I noticed a nice early-evening event (7:03pm) when I generated a nightly run of Occult4 for Nov 13th UT. This? involved a 12.2 mag star and 16.2 mag (1349) Bechuana. The JPL/Horizons-based centerline ran nearly over my house, giving me a stated Probability of 100% (see attached).
In that same nightly run Occult4 listed another event - tho this one was more of a challenge. In this case the Target Star was about mag 15.1, and the asteroid - (463) Lola - was mag 15.8, and the event occurred at 8:46 UT (3:46am). Occult4 gave me a JPL/Horizons-based Probability of 65%.
Although I subscribe to nearly all the feeds in OccultWatcher Desktop (and set my search criteria very "wide"), OW did not list _EITHER_ event.
Turns out I had a RARE clear night on the 13th UT.
The event involving (1349) was only 12 degrees up in the SSW which required me to 'Go Mobile' (to get away from tall trees at home), so I drove about a mile from home to a wide open, dark field. I used my RunCam NE2AE and my 12-inch Sky-Watcher 300P SynScan GoTo / WiFi-controllable Dob. It was a bit of a challenge as the outside temp was only 19 degrees F. Due to the cold, I had the scope outside the passenger door of my pickup (warm-inside), with the computer propped-up above the passenger seat, with the screen facing out the window. To operate the computer I briefly opened the passenger door. A Bluetti EB70S inside the truck provided both 120VAC and 12VDC power. Just before the event, I hopped in the truck's driver's seat, turned the computer screen around observed the event in comfort.
Anyway...
????? === BINGO! === Got it! - A nice occultation.
I observed quite a distinct event with a duration of 0.83 seconds (maximum was predicted as 0.74 seconds). There are 2 shape models for the asteroid in Occult4 and I can see how it was likely that I got just a bit more than the maximum.
So after this Pos, I drove home, set up the same RunCam in my home observatory, and consulted my nightly Occult4 list of events. [OW Desktop listed nothing worth trying for during the night].
My Occult4 run listed a couple potential 'nicely placed in the sky' events (for which their predicted paths ran quite close to me):
2:17 UT - I recorded a Miss
4:34 UT - Another Miss
6:19 UT - Another Miss
7:00 UT - Another Miss (tho Occult4 gave me a decent probability of 42%)
8:46 UT......... This involved the above mentioned (463) Lola.
(In between events I went inside an watched a couple movies, and videos on YouTube - )
[As I RARELY get clear nights, I tend to pull "long nights" when it's clear. I know there will be PLENTY of upcoming nights to catch up on sleep!].
Finally (Amen!).... Time for the last event - (463)...
By this time (about 3:40am) the outside temp had dropped to about 11 degrees F. The computer was running in the observatory's warm room (which was about 60dF).
I would have liked to have used my QHY174M-GPS camera for this event, but I'm hesitant to subject a $1300 camera to heavy frost and such brutal temps - so I used my RunCam NE2AE (and I own a spare).
This event (combined mag of just under __15__) would push the RunCam to it's limits - but it helped that the event was 79 degrees up (nearly overhead). The max duration was 2.5 seconds so I figured I would set the RunCam at NS3 (due to the cold temps, I saw little thermal noise at NS3).
And...
????? === BINGO! === Got it! - A bit faint, but a distinct occultation (easily passes as a Pos in PyOTE)
[See the attached for some info/images regarding these 2 positives].
Suffice it to say......... I would have never known about these events if I didn't run my own nightly occultation searches in Occult4. I'd say at least 75% of my positive events are/were never listed on OW.
I do think the Northeast is... quite "overlooked" - as far as predictions.
[...And there's the old addage... "If you are going to do it right, DO IT YOURSELF"].
Disclaimer -- I will admit I didn't search OW Cloud to see if the (1349) and (463) were listed there (still haven't looked) - and then possibly "tagged" them. (I'll try to do this in the future ---- maybe). But... I __DID__ look to see if any experienced observers I knew of were near the predicted paths for these events -- and nobody was.
Moral of the Story --- OW is a Great tool for Coordinating observers, and there's certainly nothing wrong with just trying for events that OW informs you of (it's definitely less effort than running Occult4).... but... be prepared to miss some nice ones.
Sorry for the novel....
Happy Shadows,
George
George Viscome
Rand Obs II - MPC W71
Lake Placid, NY
|
Re: If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
Steve:
NO. This event was not listed on my OW Desktop (I found it via Occult4). But....
I did just search for it on OW Cloud, found it and Tagged it, and submitted my site. It (only) then appeared on my OW Desktop.
So you should now find it on your OW Desktop if you Re-Synchronize.
Sadly... It looks like it will be cloudy for me.
George
|
Re: If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
George,
?
Is this on OW?? Just looked for it and didn't find it.
?
?
Steve
?
From: George <georvisc@...>
To: OccultNEUS <[email protected]>
Date: Monday, 13 November 2023 2:52 PM EST
Subject: [OccultNEUS] If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
Folks:
If (by some miracle) it's clear on Nov 15th, here's an event that at least one of the 3 listed observers is sure to hit -- if not a hit by all 3 (and 3 perfectly positioned chords). Observer locations indicated by the small orange dots (and my location by the orange circle). See attached.
Clear Skies,
George
|
Re: If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
Steve:
Certainly take care of yourself 1st. There will be other events... Best,
G
|
Re: If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
George,
I have good news and bad news on this one.? The good news is I was supposed to be on a business trip, but that's been cancelled.? The bad news is it was cancelled due to me getting COVID on Sunday.? It is supposed to be clear here in Wellsboro for this one.
Anyway, if it is clear and I am healthy enough, I can try it.
Steve
Get
Folks:
If (by some miracle) it's clear on Nov 15th, here's an event that at least one of the 3 listed observers is sure to hit -- if not a hit by all 3 (and 3 perfectly positioned chords). Observer locations indicated by the small orange dots (and my location by the orange circle). See attached.
Clear Skies,
George
|
If clear on Nov 15th UT - 3 NEUS observers in the path....
Folks:
If (by some miracle) it's clear on Nov 15th, here's an event that at least one of the 3 listed observers is sure to hit -- if not a hit by all 3 (and 3 perfectly positioned chords). Observer locations indicated by the small orange dots (and my location by the orange circle). See attached.
Clear Skies,
George
|
Roxanne: You wrote:
Can you clarify your comment-> Main Menu --> Maintenance, then go down to "#11".? to set the "a default limit in Occult for the number of events it can find in a single Search.?? Main Menu -> Maintenance,? takes one to the General Maintenance Functions, with the only obvious #11 listed as under Downloads as "Reporting Addresses".
Ah, yes, make that..........
Main Menu --> Maintenance--> User Settings, then go down to "#11"
Glad to see you are getting some events listed.
I'd suggest searching 1 night at a time. Then you can deepen your search criteria and it will 1) take a shorter time to complete a search, 2) not risk an overload error.
FYI: In a 1 night search this time of year I get an initial listing of 300+ events per night. Many are low to 0% chance, but several are rather promising double-digit probability. This is using a "Distance of site from path of 250km" in "List & Display" (this shows me what I can get if I consider going mobile). I then narrow down this value to 50 to 80km. [As a sample, I just called up a search for 11/13 and I see double-digit chances of? - 45%, 38%, 100%, 17%, 12%, 43%, 41%, and 67%].
Again.... Your initial search will be based on MPC elements. To get the JPL/Horizon paths, there is a further step (which we can cover later -- in maybe a Zoom session).
? -G
|
With your noted guidance George, along with Kevin's comments, I spent a good part of Monday reinstalling Occult. In trying to optimistically run a search set for two weeks out - after 3 hours, I shut it down.? In backing off to a 2 day limit, a smaller event criteria search will now run to a displayed "Asteroid - List and Display" window without errors.?? Yesterday was too beautiful of a day to sit in front of a computer, with last night a few hours were spent enjoying some fall observing.? Thus my revisit to Occult for an hour today, before heading out to ROMR later this aft.? Gotta grab those bits of blue sky while I can.?
Can you clarify your comment-> Main Menu --> Maintenance,
then go down to "#11".? to set the "a default limit in Occult for the
number of events it can find in a single Search.?? Main Menu -> Maintenance,? takes one to the General Maintenance Functions, with the only obvious #11 listed as under Downloads as "Reporting Addresses".
So, at this point , I have a generated Occelmnt20231106.xml file and the "Asteroid - List and Display" window displays with a couple of line entries.??? - Roxanne
**
\On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 01:46:31 PM EST, George Viscome via groups.io <georvisc@...> wrote:
All:
Some further notes....
Kevin is correct, "It all depends on what you want to do" - ie., how deep you want to search ---- what you want to set your mag limit to, what's the smallest mag drop you feel you can discern, what's the smallest asteroid size to use in a search.... etc.
Some have mentioned that they get an error after their 1st 100 or 300 asteroids. I find this puzzling. Essentially, with Occult4, it should either be finding events or not (working or not working). I can only think of 2 things that might cause this...
1) There's was an initial error in formatting in one of the 3 downloaded asteroid databases. I've seen this happen a few times. Solution - reload the 3 databases. You may need to wait until the next update to a database for the issue to clear.
2) You are overloading the output in your Search.
First, there is a default limit in Occult for the number of events it can find in a single Search. The default is 20,000. This number can be found by going to the Main Menu --> Maintenance, then go down to "#11". I have mine set at 40,000. But as stated in the program, "If the number is too large, the program may run out of memory". 40,000 seems fine for both my Win10 computer (4Gb memory), and Win11 computer (32Gb memory).
You can overload the output in a couple ways.......
a) You are searching too deep. You may need to relax your mag limit, mag drop, and asteroid diameter.....
FYI: The number of events you see listed in the output (in List & Display) is most likely [much] smaller than the number of events the program actually [initially] finds. When you press "Search" the program builds up a list of events it finds ("behind the scenes"), then at the end of the Search it takes into account the "Filter settings" in "List & Display" and displays only the events that pass those filter parameters. There is a way, during the initial Search, to limit the number of events that Occult4 finds "behind the scenes" -- which helps to avoid an "overload" of events. This can be done via a setting on the "Search Page", and is in the aqua-colored box below the star catalog. This involves setting a number in the "Passes within" box (see the image I attached in a previous post). There I have mine set for "Passes within 900 km" (of the Lat & Long of my observing site). If this box is unchecked, Occult4 may actually build a database (behind the scenes) for all events it finds that fall somewhere OVER THE ENTIRE EARTH! I think you can see this has the possibility of creating a VERY large "behind the scenes" list of events - and can result in an overload error. So I would suggest that users check this box, put a value in it (maybe 500km), and make sure your approx Lat & Long are correctly displayed.
Also in this aqua-colored box, set a realistic mag drop, and star catalog mag limit. This will also prevent any overloads. [I've found mag drops of less than ~0.15 mag give me more headaches than it's worth - wondering if the "drop" I see is real or just noise].
Make sure all 3 boxes are checked.
Another way to have a Search hault due to an overload......
b) You are doing a search for too long a period of time.
I have seen overloads happen (rather easily) this way. I know folks might like to search for a month or so at a time. I feel this is NOT WISE unless your search parameters stop at something like mag 11, you are using GAIA 14, and any asteroid is larger than perhaps 20km.
After much trial and error, I would really -suggest- you do the following:
Do your (normal) searches for one day (well, actually, night) at a time (!!!!)
I find doing searches for just 1 'day' convenient. I just keep track of the weather forecast a few days ahead, and if I see the potential for a clear night coming up, I go over to the computer, enter in a Start and End date of the same day (number). I then start the search and walk away from the computer and come back later - when I see a list of events displayed. If it's clear out, it's then very handy to just consult that nightly file. After that night has passed, simply delete the file.
....Or you can do a nightly search just prior to an evening's observing.
"My paths don't match what I see on OW"...........
Again...,? remember the initial output from Occult4 will be based on the MPC's MPCorb database(!), and will NOT be based on JPL/Horizons. There is a further step you must do to get JPL-based predictions. Maybe I'll write that step up later, but it's better to cover in a Zoom session.
That said... There IS a way to get a JPL/Horizons prediction (path) directly --- [usually] FOR A SINGLE ASTEROID.
Do the following:
* At the Search Page, in the beige box, you will see a box saying "Select asteroid or Set a comet".
* Click on the box
* At the prompt, enter the asteroid number without parenthesis (or enter a provisional designation)
* Click OK
* Press Search
IF OW(C) predicts an event involving this [single] asteroid (for the selected night), the event should show in List & Display, and if you click on the row of text the path map that is drawn should [very closely] match that shown on OW(C) --- providing the path on OW(C) is based on JPL/Horizons.
So this is a way you can "test" the accuracy of paths output from Occult4.
FYI: When I get a JPL-based path via Occult4, it almost always matches the path in OW(C) - VERY closely (prividing the path in OW(C) is also JPL-based.
When you get an output (list of events) in the "List & Display" window, be advised that you can refine the events which are displayed by modifying the "Selection filters" at the top. We can cover that in another post or better yet, in a Zoom session.
Lastly..... If you run into an error stating that Occult4 can't "resolve" the JPL site... check your Internet connection.
Clear Skies (very wishful thinking for me lately),
George
|
Steve C
George Viscome
