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Time domain based frequency response analysis
A lot of simulators have added POP/PSS (Periodic Operating Point/
Periodic Steady-State) solvers to their repertoire. Micro-Cap recently added POP capability. They discuss it here: Notice the effect it has on the resolution of the FFT example. Many other simulators take this further with the addition of a time domain based fast running FRA (Frequency Response Analyzer) capability (SIMPLIS, PSIM and NL5 come to mind, but there are others as well). This capability allows the simulator to directly produce Bode plots and loop gain analyses for switched circuits such as switched-mode power supplies (a very good feature, IMO). The application of small-signal frequency-domain analysis to switching piecewise-linear systems presents tremendous challenges. Some years ago I made a FRA completely within LTspice using its special a-devices (still available in our group files section). About that time, Mike added some FRA examples to LTspice that use post processing (.meas statements) to complete the analysis and plot the results. Mike writes about this at length in the FAQ section of LTspice's Help file topic ("How to get a Bode Plot from a SMPS"). He argues that it is not worth the trouble because it is generally not needed in order to be able to compensate a design using an LTC IC because most of them use current mode control. Both of the above LTspice FRA approaches (mine and Mike's) are painfully slow and suffer numerical dynamic range noise problems. SIMPLIS (which has a free, but node limited demo) will solve for the frequency response and/or loop gain of SMPS circuits with no noise issues and will run the complete response analysis within a few minutes (LTspice might take hours to do the same thing). Here is link to a paper in which a basic buck stage is simulated with SIMPLIS. The schematic is on page 16 and the SIMPLIS output is shown on the next page (out to several times the switching frequency). The results shown look very clean with just the right sort of loop response as expected for the extended frequency range simulated. In the past, I have measured SMPS loops with an HP4194A loop gain analyzer. The lab measurements look just like the SIMPLIS results. I have also used the Ridley AP analyzer, but it is not quite as accurate as the HP4194A. I have been told that the Venable analyzer produces very good results as well (perhaps the best of all). SIMPLIS type simulators are very fast in part because they approx- imate all the nonlinear switched devices (diode, MOSFETs, etc.) with line segment approximations through the switch transition (some allow the number of segments used to be specified). Part of their speed comes from the use of the POP/PSS analysis to quickly find the operating point. I think a large part of their speed also comes from having a native frequency response analyzer device directly built into the simulator code. LTspice already has a lot of these types of capabilities (ideal diodes and switches with smooth transitions), POP/PSS sensing (but no accelerator to get there). It has fast state transition sensing devices (the digital a-devices). Personally, I would like to see Mike add a native FRA device to LTspice so that it could generate Bode plot loop-gain curves for switched mode products. It would not be necessary to be as fast as SIMPLIS because LTspice does not use the less accurate line segment approximations, but noise free results would be a must. Run times of one third to one tenth the speed of SIMPLIS (or the others) would be okay. There are lots of tricks Mike could use to speed up the analysis. For example, the Venable analyzer looks at phase change rate to dynamically adjust the spacing of the frequency measurement points. For LTC current mode ICs, all this may not be necessary, but for general SMPS design there are many cases in which second order effects dominate the loop response (series ESR in capacitors, parallel loss in inductors, variable operating point dependent delays in opto-isolator devices, etc.). In cases like these, or when using non standard control methods, depending on averaged models and standard concepts may lead to false conclusions and bad choices in compensation design. A time domain FRA capability in an excellent general purpose simulator such as is LTspice would allow the designer better insight into the circuit and would be a big plus to its feature set. |
Re: LTspice Genealogy - The Heritage of Simulation Ubiquity
dear A.S.
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I believe my answer was correct with respect to programs labelled "SPICE". And you can research too. Hank McCall On 7/22/2013 11:45 AM, analogspiceman wrote:
--- In LTspice@..., "analogspiceman" wrote:Segueing back to the history of LTspice, I just found a very in-Here's the pertinent excerpt: |
Re: Convergence Problems.
--- In LTspice@..., "jason.vanryan" <andrewc.russell@...> wrote:
Thanks for the feedback. This is happening on the latest version I downloaded and after I hav set all sim variables to default in the tool tab. I will try the cap idea and see how it works out. |
Re: LTspice Genealogy - The Heritage of Simulation Ubiquity
--- In LTspice@..., "Steven" <swkunkle@...> wrote:
You might find this interesting.Thanks, but that was one of the first pages I found when I first started to research the history of SPICE. Some interviews with early SPICE developers and pictures of them.Yes, it *is* a good reference and worth a read. I really should add it and some more of the best such links to the wiki. I don't know if it adds anything to your wiki, but theYeah, and so did a pencil & paper and then the slide rule. :) (You gotta draw the line somewhere.) CANCER was really the first true progenitor of SPICE (the others you mentioned were just distant relatives without a very good genetic match, in my opinion). CANCER really was the first circuit simulator to utilize sparse matrix techniques and integrated DC operating point analysis, small-signal AC analysis and transient analysis all into one package. |
Re: Convergence Problems.
jason.vanryan <andrewc.russell@...> wrote:
I have some files that ran ok in simulation a few months ago. LTspice is continually being updated and improved. It's possible a simulation that barely got by before, has a problem now due to a subtle change. I don't have any specifics, just saying that it's possible. Unfortunately, without a side-by-side comparison, you can't say for sure. I moved everything to a folder on my desktop, but leaving the library in the the same folder as the LTSice executable ( program86 folder inMoving files could cause the simulation to bring in a different model than before. Any change is susceptible to error. Some of my files still seem to run ok ( transient analysis), but others won't run - ie I get a few hundred nano seconds of simulation andThe loop gain simulations use .AC analysis. AC analysis is inherently simpler because what is simulated is 100% linear; and most of the problems that cause transient analysis to get stuck, are due to nonlinear things that are ill-behaved (such as discontinuities in a function or its derivative). Any ideas as to what could be the problem? I've set everything in the tools tab to default. BTW.Were you using the defaults before? Sometimes the Alternate Solver helps. Sometimes loosening up on ABSTOL (making it less small, i.e., a less-negative exponent) and/or RELTOL can help, but this can affect accuracy. Various other control panel options may sometimes help too. Regards, Andy |
Re: LTspice Genealogy - The Heritage of Simulation Ubiquity
Steven
You might find this interesting.
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Some interviews with early SPICE developers and pictures of them. I don't know if it adds anything to your wiki, but the predicessors to SPICE such as ECAP from IBM (~1965) and SCEPTRE led to the developement of more generally useful simulators. --- In LTspice@..., "analogspiceman" <analogspiceman@...> wrote:
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Re: Step Change to k of Coupled Inductors During Transient Analysis
it's readable for me.
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update your browser's font --- schockenbaum@... wrote: From: "Heinz-W. Schockenbaum" <schockenbaum@...> To: LTspice@... Subject: [LTspice] Re: Step Change to k of Coupled Inductors During Transient Analysis Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2013 14:35:32 -0000 --- In LTspice@..., "bordodynov" <BordodunovAlex@...> wrote:
Hi Alex. Updated your browser to a readable characterset? ;-) Welcome! hws |
Re: subcircuit macromodel
Thanks for your help.
Kind Regards, Mike From: "Helmut" <helmutsennewald@...> To: LTspice@... Date: 23/07/2013 11:14 Subject: [LTspice] Re: subcircuit macromodel Sent by: LTspice@... Hello Mike, You could look in our Files section for models and examples. Files > Lib > Tubes_Valves > Koren_Tubes.cir Tube_IM.lib Another source Best regards, Helmut --- In LTspice@..., Michael.Harris@... wrote: get this from?(ctrl-C) the contents of the subcircuit from a text editor, and paste it (ctrl-V)it in any available space on the schematic (the position doesn't matter).It makes the subcircuit appear in the SPICE netlist. |
Re: LTspice Genealogy - The Heritage of Simulation Ubiquity
Tony Casey
<snip>
When experienced circuit designers began to download LTspice and use it, they immediately noticed the difference from PSpice. They didn't see it immediately in terms of efficiency, but it was noticeably faster. However, Engelhardt also notes that LTspice is for circuit design. It's not intended to compete with an IC design tool such as Cadence's HSPICE. On the other hand, it's free, versus $1500.</snip> Whilst the Electronic Design article was interesting and informative, it was a pity it was also inaccurate, and not sufficiently proof-read, as pointed out by several readers at the time. HSPICE is, of course, sold by Synopsys, not Cadence. I'd also be impressed if anyone could obtain it for $1500. Regards, Tony |
Re: Mosfet
Thank you, will give your idea a try. Best Kevin.
________________________________ From: Helmut <helmutsennewald@...> To: LTspice@... Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2013 6:55 AM Subject: [LTspice] Re: Mosfet ? --- In LTspice@..., "kbyrne10" <kbyrne10@...> wrote: Hello, Please search with your web browser in this file. Files > Tables of Contents > all_files.htm Normally I firstly look on the manufacturer's web page to get the latest version. If it's not there, I look in our group as shown above. A Google-search is also a good idea to get an overview what's available. Best regards, Helmut [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: Mosfet
--- In LTspice@..., "kbyrne10" <kbyrne10@...> wrote:
Hello, Please search with your web browser in this file. Files > Tables of Contents > all_files.htm Normally I firstly look on the manufacturer's web page to get the latest version. If it's not there, I look in our group as shown above. A Google-search is also a good idea to get an overview what's available. Best regards, Helmut |
Re: subcircuit macromodel
Hello Mike,
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You could look in our Files section for models and examples. Files > Lib > Tubes_Valves > Koren_Tubes.cir Tube_IM.lib Another source Best regards, Helmut --- In LTspice@..., Michael.Harris@... wrote:
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Re: how can i make a susceptance with LTspice
John Woodgate
In message <ksle46+itac@...>, dated Tue, 23 Jul 2013, He <he.yang@...> writes:
Actually i want to find a device, that can descript the reciprocal of 'L'(Inductor).is there the device in LTspice, or how can i definit it with k=1/L?According to Wikipedia, there is not even a property name for a '1/L' device, although I seem to recall seeing the term 'inertance' a long time ago. But as far as I can see, for Spice simulation, you need neither the '1/L' device or the susceptance. The reason is that the device is still an inductor, however you describe its electrical property, so you specify its inductance in LTspice. There may be another reason why you want to deal with '1/L', so if you could explain a bit more what you want to do, I can try to help. For example, if you want to use a list or range of 1/L values in a .STEP PARAM statement, just make the list or range end-points and step from the corresponding L values instead. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it? John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK |
Re: subcircuit macromodel
Thanks Andy, Helmut,
This is helpful. The Triode symbol within LTSpice does not have a subcircuit macromodel attached to it, I need to supply this myself. As I am not familiar with the format of how these subcircuits appear within LTSpice or what it is for a Triode does anyone know where I can get this from? Is there a library online that I can get it from or a subcircuit that I can edit? Kind Regards, Mike Harris From: Andy <Andrew.Ingraham@...> To: LTspice@... Date: 23/07/2013 03:59 Subject: Re: [LTspice] subcircuit macromodel Sent by: LTspice@... The other alternative, if the triode subcircuit is relatively short (say less than one or two dozen lines), is to paste it directly onto the schematic. In LTspice, click on the ".op" icon (far right on the toolbar) to add a "SPICE directive". A SPICE directive can be anything that you want to appear in the SPICE netlist. That includes subcircuits. Now copy (ctrl-C) the contents of the subcircuit from a text editor, and paste it (ctrl-V) into the box in the SPICE directive pop-up window, and click OK. Place it in any available space on the schematic (the position doesn't matter). Functionally, a .lib or .include (.inc) statement does the same thing. It makes the subcircuit appear in the SPICE netlist. Andy |
Re: how can i make a susceptance with LTspice
--- In LTspice@..., John Woodgate <jmw@...> wrote:
thanks John! Actually i want to find a device, that can descript the reciprocal of 'L'(Inductor).is there the device in LTspice, or how can i definit it with k=1/L? thank you! He Yang |
Re: Step Change to k of Coupled Inductors During Transient Analysis
Hi Bryan.
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Look Mutual_Ind_K=F(V).zip in /TEMP. I made a sub-circuit (subckt) two coupled inductors. The coupling coefficient is controlled by voltage. This allows you to make the coupling coefficient dependent on the time. Look at my example. Bordodynov. --- In LTspice@..., ¨¢???????? ?????????¡Á <BordodunovAlex@...> wrote:
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Re: Convergence Problems.
--- In LTspice@..., "jason.vanryan" <andrewc.russell@...> wrote:
Hello Jason, Please reset your SPICE settings. Control Panel -> SPICE-> Reset to default If it still hangs in .TRAN, you could try with the cshunt option. .options cshunt=1e-16 It adds a capacitor from every node to GND. Be warned. If you have too much cshunt, your circuit will become much different from your design. Best regards, Helmut |
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