开云体育

Dear Group,

I am attempting to validate the linearity of a 4 quadrant analogue multiplier with discrete devices and LTSPice.

I have a 0V to 10V rail and I am currently sweeping the upper input (multiplier cells) from oV to 10V with 1V increments, and simialiarly with the bottom input which feeds into a differential pair supplying the bias currents to the multipliers.

However, the results do not look meaningfull at this time and I wondered if anyone knew what the best approach would be to validate linearity?

Many thanks, Ken.

Raymond, back at the beginning of this thread Rick said you can not use .ac analysis and .dc sweep with class D amplifiers. His advice still holds.

If you want to measure the frequency response of a UM10155 you will need to make multiple transient analysis simulations using a different input frequency for each simulation.

As suggested by Robert Talty you can get a lot of good information about the distortion in the output by performing a FFT on the output. If you need help with a FFT post a message.

You also may want to try using the THD Meter found in this group's files. See:
Files <> > Attached files sorted by message number <>

msg_11511

<>

THD Meter

If you search all_files.htm you will find a lot more information on measuring THD.

Howard

raymond wrote:

Hai. Guys. I successfully perform transient on my schematic based on philip UM10155. Then now I'm trying to perform THD and IMD on my output resistor. When I'm running the AC analysis, no result and graph is popping out. Do you guys know what is the problem? Really appreciate if anyone of you give me some suggestion on performing the AC analysis.





Many Thanks,
Raymond



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

I downloaded the latest and greatest EL34 model from the folder you
suggested. Better, but still has major problems. First is the idle current which
is 20% high. Second, it shows no idle screen current which is wrong.
Third, the distortion is too high.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Mike

Thanks Helmut,

I think we need to report it to Yahoo, there is a
message on the top of the search screen that says:

"Having problems with message search? Fill out this
form to ensure your group is one of the first to be
migrated to the new message search system."

I don't know if anybody has done that for this group yet

Best Regards,
Jorge.

Hello Jorge,

Thanks for your feedback. I will report it again. I did this
a dozen times in the spring until we got back the capability
to search, but now we have a new problem.


I have just found a work around.

Let's assume you search for "idt".

Fill-in idt in the Search-field. Click Search.

You will get displayed "1 to 10 of 113 messages" and your
browser will show the address


Now manually change this link to get the links to the other
messages found. The key is the extension in the query with
"&pos=0&cnt=40". I only got a maximum of 44 messages at once.
So I had to split the task into smaller pieces.








Best regards,
Helmut


--- In LTspice@..., "elyoyi58" <elyoyi58@...> wrote:

--- In LTspice@..., Philip Bellingham <rmhc78a@> wrote:

Helmut,
??
I see the same behavior reported by others. I waited
until I tied it on my computer at home before I
included my voice on this topic, so that I could be
sure that it happens with different browsers on
different operating systems. My computer at the office
uses Internet Explorer running on Windows XP Pro. My
home computer uses a browser supplied by Yahoo running
on Windows 2000 Pro. I see the same behavior on both.
For example, I just searched for "behavioral", as if I
was looking for information on BV and BI sources. This
returned a screen with some related results, and the
status line said,
"Matched Messages 1 - 10 of 987 (1.253 sec) ?? First ??|??
<??Previous ??|?? Next??> ??|?? Last"
When I clicked on "Last", the next screen had no results
and had a box that read, "Please try a query in the
search box. "
Thanks,
- Philip


--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Helmut <helmutsennewald@> wrote:


From: Helmut <helmutsennewald@>
Subject: [LTspice] Re: search problems
To: LTspice@...
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 6:00 PM


??



--- In LTspice@yahoogroups .com, "Helmut" <helmutsennewald@
...> wrote:

--- In LTspice@yahoogroups .com, "elyoyi58" <elyoyi58@>
wrote:

Hi All,
I am having problems searching the messages, it only
shows the first 10 entries.
does anybody have the same problem?
Thanks,
Jorge.

Hello Jorge,

You should see a status on the bottom of the screen
like "Matched Messages 1 - 10 of 112 (1.553s) First
Previous Next Last"
If you click on Next, you will get the next 10 matched
messages.
Best regards,
Helmut

Hello,

OK, now I see the problem. Clicking on "Next" gives no
results. It looks like Yahoo has broken again the
search-function. The problem started 10 months ago.
One couldn't search in newer messages for a couple of
months. Then it was partly working again, but now it's
function is again questionable. It looks for me that
Yahoo can never can fix their problems with the search
function in the Yahoo groups. I guess they have a big
problem with the software management of the groups'
messages. Maybe a wrong software architecture.

Best regards,
Helmut

--- In LTspice@..., Philip Bellingham <rmhc78a@...> wrote:

Helmut,
??
I see the same behavior reported by others. I waited until I tied it on my computer at home before I included my voice on this topic, so that I could be sure that it happens with different browsers on different operating systems. My computer at the office uses Internet Explorer running on Windows XP Pro. My home computer uses a browser supplied by Yahoo running on Windows 2000 Pro. I see the same behavior on both. For example, I just searched for "behavioral", as if I was looking for information on BV and BI sources. This returned a screen with some related results, and the status line said,
??
"Matched Messages 1 - 10 of 987 (1.253 sec) ?? First ??|?? <??Previous ??|?? Next??> ??|?? Last"
??
When I clicked on "Last", the next screen had no results and had a box that read, "Please try a query in the search box. "
??
Thanks,
??
???? - Philip


--- On Wed, 11/25/09, Helmut <helmutsennewald@...> wrote:


From: Helmut <helmutsennewald@...>
Subject: [LTspice] Re: search problems
To: LTspice@...
Date: Wednesday, November 25, 2009, 6:00 PM


??



--- In LTspice@yahoogroups .com, "Helmut" <helmutsennewald@ ...> wrote:

--- In LTspice@yahoogroups .com, "elyoyi58" <elyoyi58@> wrote:

Hi All,
I am having problems searching the messages, it only shows
the first 10 entries.
does anybody have the same problem?
Thanks,
Jorge.

Hello Jorge,

You should see a status on the bottom of the screen like

Matched Messages 1 - 10 of 112 (1.553s) Firs Previous Next Last

If you click on Next, you will get the next 10 matched
messages.

Best regards,
Helmut

Hello,

OK, now I see the problem. Clicking on "Next" gives no results.
It looks like Yahoo has broken again the search-function.
The problem started 10 months ago. One couldn't search in
newer messages for a couple of months. Then it was partly
working again, but now it's function is again questionable.
It looks for me that Yahoo can never can fix their problems
with the search function in the Yahoo groups. I guess they
have a big problem with the software management of the groups'
messages. Maybe a wrong software architecture.

Best regards,
Helmut









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Helmut,

I think we need to report it to Yahoo, there is a message on the top of the search screen that says:

"Having problems with message search? Fill out this form to ensure your group is one of the first to be migrated to the new message search system."

I don't know if anybody has done that for this group yet

Best Regards,
Jorge.

--- In LTspice@..., "kellsie_k" <kellsiek@...> wrote:

How do install libraries that I find. For example, if I
want to use the Digital 74LVCxxx library
(74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x.zip), where do I put the files so that
LTspice can access them? Do I need to use a ".lib" statement?

I tried unzipping all the files into the same directory
(C:&#92;Program Files&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;lib&#92;sym&#92;Other&#92;74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x).
I was able to find the part and then I added a .lib
statement that apparently didn't work. My lib statement is:

.lib "C:&#92;Program Files&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;lib&#92;sym&#92;Other&#92;
74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x&#92;SN74LVC1G5x.lib"

I tried it with and without the double-quotes and it
didn't make any difference. The error I continue to get
is: Could not open library file"SN74LVC1G5x.lib"

Any ideas?

Hello,

Please give me a link to this library or upload it to our
Files-section. I would like to check it.

Files > Temp > your_lib_file

Best regards,
Helmut

How do install libraries that I find. For example, if I want to use the Digital 74LVCxxx library (74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x.zip), where do I put the files so that LTspice can access them? Do I need to use a ".lib" statement?

I tried unzipping all the files into the same directory (C:&#92;Program Files&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;lib&#92;sym&#92;Other&#92;74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x). I was able to find the part and then I added a .lib statement that apparently didn't work. My lib statement is:

.lib "C:&#92;Program Files&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;lib&#92;sym&#92;Other&#92;74LVC1G5x-NC7SZ5x&#92;SN74LVC1G5x.lib"

I tried it with and without the double-quotes and it didn't make any difference. The error I continue to get is: Could not open library file"SN74LVC1G5x.lib"

Any ideas?

--- In LTspice@..., "Helmut" <helmutsennewald@...> wrote:

--- In LTspice@..., "max5_de" <max5_de@> wrote:

I think I figured this out myself:

I have to use pins 1 to 5 instead of the numbers I posted
before right?

Hello MAx,

Yes, you have to give the pins the netlist order 1 to 5
according to the functional order given in the subcircuit.
The V+ pin for example needs the netlist order 3 in the V+
pin of the symbol. This opamp has the same order of the
pins as the "opamp2" from the menu [Opamps]. It's very convenient
to use this opamp2-symbol whenever it's possible.

I have uploaded an example.

Files > Lib > OP2177_test.zip


By the way my example has required a small convergence setting.

.options abstol=1e-11


Maybe you should read my guide for subcircuits.

Best regards,
Helmut

Hello Max,

Sorry, I hit the send-button by mistake before I finished my
answer.

Maybe you should read my guide for subcircuits.

Files > FAQ > Symbol_types.txt



If you need opamp-symbols with another pin-order or more pins,
you should look in our Files-section for them.

1. Many examples with opamps are in

Files > Lib




2. Many universal symbols for opamps can be found in

Files > Lib > sym > Universal Subcircuits, X-Symbols



Best regards,
Helmut

--- In LTspice@..., "max5_de" <max5_de@...> wrote:

I think I figured this out myself:

I have to use pins 1 to 5 instead of the numbers I posted
before right?

Hello MAx,

Yes, you have to give the pins the netlist order 1 to 5
according to the functional order given in the subcircuit.
The V+ pin for example needs the netlist order 3 in the V+
pin of the symbol. This opamp has the same order of the
pins as the "opamp2" from the menu [Opamps]. It's very convenient
to use this opamp2-symbol whenever it's possible.

I have uploaded an example.

Files > Lib > OP2177_test.zip


By the way my example has required a small convergence setting.

.options abstol=1e-11


Maybe you should read my guide for subcircuits.

Best regards,
Helmut

--- In LTspice@..., "max5_de" <max5_de@> wrote:

I'm trying to integrate the op2177 spice model into ltspice.
I named the model file OP2177.lib and saved it into my
./lib/sub directory.

Then I copied the UniversalOpamp2.asy file to OP2177.asy
in the ./lib/sym/Opams directory.

Looking at the comments in the OP2177.lib file:

* non-inverting input
* | inverting input
* | | positive supply
* | | | negative supply
* | | | | output
* | | | | |
* | | | | |
.SUBCKT OP2177 1 2 99 50 34

I think I figured this out myself:

I have to use pins 1 to 5 instead of the numbers I posted before right?

I'm trying to integrate the op2177 spice model into ltspice. I named the model file OP2177.lib and saved it into my ./lib/sub directory.

Then I copied the UniversalOpamp2.asy file to OP2177.asy in the ./lib/sym/Opams directory.

Looking at the comments in the OP2177.lib file:

* OP2177 SPICE Macro-model
* 05/02 Rev A
* SB, ADSiV apps
* Typical values, Vsy=±15V
* Copyright 2002 by Analog Devices
*
* Refer to "README.DOC" file for License Statement. Use of this model
* indicates your acceptance with the terms and provisions in the License Statement.
*
* Node assignments
* non-inverting input
* | inverting input
* | | positive supply
* | | | negative supply
* | | | | output
* | | | | |
* | | | | |
.SUBCKT OP2177 1 2 99 50 34


I concluded I had to change the pin connections in the symbol file to

PINATTR PinName In+
PINATTR SpiceOrder 1
PIN -32 48 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName In-
PINATTR SpiceOrder 2
PIN 0 32 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName V+
PINATTR SpiceOrder 99
PIN 0 96 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName V-
PINATTR SpiceOrder 50
PIN 32 64 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName OUT
PINATTR SpiceOrder 34

However if I try to run a simulation I get the error message:'Port(pin) count mismatch between the definition of subcircuit "op2177" and instance: "xu1". The instance has more connection terminals than the definition'.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for your support.

Here's the complete spice model:

===================================
* OP2177 SPICE Macro-model
* 05/02 Rev A
* SB, ADSiV apps
* Typical values, Vsy=±15V
* Copyright 2002 by Analog Devices
*
* Refer to "README.DOC" file for License Statement. Use of this model
* indicates your acceptance with the terms and provisions in the License Statement.
*
* Node assignments
* non-inverting input
* | inverting input
* | | positive supply
* | | | negative supply
* | | | | output
* | | | | |
* | | | | |
.SUBCKT OP2177 1 2 99 50 34
*
* INPUT STAGE & POLE AT 100 MHZ
*
R3 5 51 6.8E3
R4 6 51 6.8E3
CIN 1 2 1.5E-12
C2 5 6 3.5E-12
I1 97 4 500E-6
IOS 1 2 0.1E-9
EOS 9 3 POLY(2) (26, 28) (73, 98) 15E-6 1 1
Q1 5 2 7 QX
Q2 6 9 8 QX
R5 7 4 50
R6 8 4 50
D1 2 36 DZ
D2 1 36 DZ
EN 3 1 10 0 1
GN1 0 2 13 0 1
GN2 0 1 16 0 1
*
EREF 98 0 28 0 1
EP 97 0 99 0 1
EM 51 0 50 0 1
*
* VOLTAGE NOISE SOURCE
*
DN1 35 10 DEN
DN2 10 11 DEN
VN1 35 0 DC 2
VN2 0 11 DC 2
*
* CURRENT NOISE SOURCE
*
DN3 12 13 DIN
DN4 13 14 DIN
VN3 12 0 DC 2
VN4 0 14 DC 2
*
* CURRENT NOISE SOURCE
*
DN5 15 16 DIN
DN6 16 17 DIN
VN5 15 0 DC 2
VN6 0 17 DC 2
*
* GAIN STAGE & DOMINANT POLE AT 0.439 HZ
*
R7 18 98 1.45E7
C3 18 98 25E-9
G1 98 18 5 6 5.15E-3
V2 97 19 1.5
V3 20 51 1.5
D3 18 19 DX
D4 20 18 DX
*
* POLE/ZERO PAIR AT 1.5MHz/12.7MHz
*
R8 21 98 1E3
R9 21 22 1.25E3
C4 22 98 10E-12
G2 98 21 18 28 1E-3
*
* POLE AT 2568 MHz
*
R10 23 98 1
C5 23 98 62E-12
G3 98 23 21 28 1
*
* POLE AT 2568 MHz
*
R11 24 98 1
C6 24 98 62E-12
G4 98 24 23 28 1
*
* POLE AT 2568 MHz
*
R14 27 98 1
C8 27 98 62E-12
G5 98 27 24 28 1
*
* COMMON-MODE GAIN NETWORK WITH ZERO AT 1 kHZ
*
R12 25 26 1E6
C7 25 26 159.155E-12
R13 26 98 1
E2 25 98 POLY(2) 1 98 2 98 0 0.28 0.28
*
*PSRR=121dB
EPSY 98 72 POLY(1) (99,50) 0 1
RPS3 72 73 1E6
CPS3 72 73 3E-9
RPS4 73 98 1

* OUTPUT STAGE
*
R15 28 99 100E3
R16 28 50 100E3
C9 28 50 1E-6
ISY 99 50 250E-6
R17 29 99 100
R18 29 50 100
L2 29 34 1E-9
G6 32 50 27 29 10E-3
G7 33 50 29 27 10E-3
G8 29 99 99 27 10E-3
G9 50 29 27 50 10E-3
V4 30 29 1.3
V5 29 31 3.8
F1 29 0 V4 1
F2 0 29 V5 1
D5 27 30 DX
D6 31 27 DX
D7 99 32 DX
D8 99 33 DX
D9 50 32 DY
D10 50 33 DY
*
* MODELS USED
*
.MODEL QX PNP(BF=5E5)
.MODEL DX D(IS=1E-12)
.MODEL DY D(IS=1E-15 BV=50)
.MODEL DZ D(IS=1E-15 BV=7.0)
.MODEL DEN D(IS=1E-12 RS=6.8E3 KF=1.95E-15 AF=1)
.MODEL DIN D(IS=1E-12 RS=77.3E-6 KF=3.38E-15 AF=1)
.ENDS OP2177
===================================

and the complete symbol file:
===================================
Version 4
SymbolType CELL
LINE Normal -32 32 32 64
LINE Normal -32 96 32 64
LINE Normal -32 32 -32 96
LINE Normal -28 48 -20 48
LINE Normal -28 80 -20 80
LINE Normal -24 84 -24 76
LINE Normal 0 32 0 48
LINE Normal 0 96 0 80
LINE Normal 4 44 12 44
LINE Normal 8 40 8 48
LINE Normal 4 84 12 84
WINDOW 0 16 32 Left 0
WINDOW 3 16 96 Left 0
SYMATTR Value OP2177
SYMATTR Prefix X
SYMATTR SpiceModel OP2177.lib
SYMATTR Value2 OP2177
SYMATTR Description Operational Amplifier OP2177
PIN -32 80 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName In+
PINATTR SpiceOrder 1
PIN -32 48 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName In-
PINATTR SpiceOrder 2
PIN 0 32 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName V+
PINATTR SpiceOrder 99
PIN 0 96 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName V-
PINATTR SpiceOrder 50
PIN 32 64 NONE 0
PINATTR PinName OUT
PINATTR SpiceOrder 34
===================================

Hiya


6CA7 = EL34

Taken from my latest version of the Norman Koren Lib which can be found at

Files > Lib > Tubes_Valves

Koren_Tubes.cir = latest version of the lib



Suusi M-B

Hai. Guys. I successfully perform transient on my schematic based on philip UM10155. Then now I'm trying to perform THD and IMD on my output resistor. When I'm running the AC analysis, no result and graph is popping out. Do you guys know what is the problem? Really appreciate if anyone of you give me some suggestion on performing the AC analysis.






Many Thanks,
Raymond

Hi Rick,

Well, sounds like we both are making progress! I noticed some head
banging on the drive a short while back and went ahead and ordered a new
HD. Today, I took my computer down for a scheduled PM and when I
started back up, the bios could not properly log the Windows boot disk.
I installed the new drive and then installed the image from 10-24-09.
I'm back up and running with normal dual boot capability. All that is
left is to see if I can recover any of the data on the drive since the
last backup.

My simulation is a full simulation of the 20V, 10A supply and the active
load. This is how I will test the unit when completed. You'll notice
that the active load has additional current shunts for testing the other
two supplies as well.

As you dig into this, please feel free to ask questions about what I've
done. I've worked in electronics all my life, practically, but, since I
worked at the local nuclear station for the last thirty years, I have
been stuck in a 1960's time warp. They don't let you implement any NEW
technology into a nuclear plant! Therefore, I've not kept up-to-date
with current technology. -- ken

Ken,

I found out that I unzipped your file incorrectly with Windows7. I'm still learning how to use it. Now that I've done it right everything runs fine.

Rick

Might anyone have a good model for the 6CA7? I downloaded a sample guitar
amplifier from Duncan Munro's site (thanks!) and pruned it down just to
proof a typical operation for the 6CA7 out of the Sylvania Tube Manual. I
adjusted load impedance so the correct impedance was reflected back the the 6CA7
pair as well as adjusted the supply and bias supplies to the stated values.

The idle current was off by almost 50 percent. The power output and
distortion were also way out of line. Any ideas?

Mike

--- In LTspice@..., "branadic" <branadic@...> wrote:

Hello,

as I got no answer in this post



I would like to ask another time. I can't get the model
file of the NE3508M04 run. The model file is a level 15
one and there are a lot of parameters ignored by ltspice.
So my question is, is there any possibility to change
this model file into a one that is accepted and interpreted
by ltspice such as level 3?
Or is it more worth to use the s-parameter and transfer
them into a model file? As I found out, there are
s-parameters available:


I do know that there is a s-param --> spice "converter",
but I never used it before.

Please let me know, if there is anybody out there who
can help me.

Regards, branadic

Hello branadic,

LTspice doesn't support this GaAs-fet model. The only chance
are then the linear S-parameter files. Therefore I have
translated the s2p-files. The converter s2spice_win095.exe
has problems with these s2p files, because they contain
additional numbers after the S-parameter table. Either
remove these lines before the translation or use the new
s2spice_win096.exe to convert those files. This new
version has a small check which at least can detect the
extra data of the provided s2p-files. I have uploaded this
version.
Be aware that freq-tables work well with .AC-analysis,
but are mostly disappointing with .TRAN analysis.

Files > Tut > S-Parameter > S-Parameter to SPICE >
s2spice_win096.exe

An example with translated S-parameters.
Files > Temp > NE3508_S-param.zip

Best regards,
Helmut

====================Model File of NE3508M04===========================

.subckt NE3508M04_v124 Gate Drain Source Ugw=800um Ngf=1
.param CGD=1.0e-15
.param CGS=104e-15
.param CGS1=1.2e-15
.param CSD=107.3e-15
.param CSD1=2.5e-15
.param LG=0.6426e-9
.param LG1=0.0194e-9
.param LD=0.6444e-9
.param LD1=0.0125e-9
.param LS=0.167e-9
L1 D D1 'LD'
L2 G G1 'LG'
L3 Source S 'LS'
L4 D1 Drain 'LD1'
L5 G1 Gate 'LG1'
C1 G1 D1 'CGD'
C2 G1 Source 'CGS'
C3 D1 Source 'CSD'
C4 Gate Source 'CGS1'
C5 Drain Source 'CSD1'
J1 D G S NE3508M04 Ugw=800 N=1 M=1
.model NE3508M04 njf level=15
+ VTO=-0.508 GAMMA=0.06959 VGO=-0.06959 VCH=1.475 GMMAX=0.4175 VDSO=2
VSAT=0.7125 KAPA=0.1232 PEFF=25.24
+ VTSO=-10 VCO=-0.07 MU=0.001 VBA=1 VBC=0.5 DELTGM=0.6167 ALPHA=0.1
+ RDB=1.0e9 CBS=160e-15 GDBM=20e-6 KDB=100 VDSM=100 GMMAXAC=0.3799 VTOAC=-0.508
+ GAMMAAC=0.03024 KAPAAC=0.1197 PEFFAC=12.62 VTSOAC=-10 DELTGMAC=0.6167
+ IS=0.9775e-12 N=1.379 KBK=0 IDSOC=0.1 VBR=15 NBR=2
+ RS=0.938 RG=0.982 RD=1.259 Ugw=800 Ngf=1
+ C11O=1227e-15 C11TH=624.4e-15 VINFL=-0.3277 DELTGS=0.596 DELTDS=0.384
LAMBDA=0.03
+ C12SAT=194.5e-15 CGDSAT=181.6e-15 RIS=3.881 RID=0.001 TAU=5.1e-12
CDSO=191.4e-15
.ends NE3508M04_v124
======================================================================

Hi Mike,

I have to agree with Mr. Groh -- study!

You have submitted this, so I know you have signed up in the group. Log
in and browse some of the 'messages'. Also, select 'Files'>'Table of
Contents'>'all_files.htm'. Press Cntl-F to open a find prompt and type
in your interest. Read, download examples, and read some more. When
you have a particular question where you cannot find the answer, post
here and someone will help.

I have been using LTspice for some months now, but still consider myself
a newbie. This is a great group and site. If you want to learn, do
your homework first and you can get as much help as you need! -- ken

First a welcome to the group. LTSpice is a great simulator and a lot of fun to use so enjoy.

As to your question, one answer is to do a lot of studying! There is, of course, the Help function in LTSpice. A second and very valuable resource is the many example files on this forum. There has been lots written on how to add new models - way to much to cover all over again in emails. So I suggest you do a bit of searching and studying first - lots out there.

Bob Groh
Blue Springs, Missouri, USA

im a newbie at this software... how can i add new models like a 555 timer?...