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Re: Probing phase

 

Hello Steve

You wrote:
" That plot was produced in an earlier schematic. I later encountered problems with the schematic no longer recognising .inc statements and hence refusing to work. "

Have you still the .log file you got when you tried to run the earlier schematic ?

Note that in
.SUBCKT 2SC6144SG 1 2 3
Q1 1 2 3? C6144SG??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
.MODEL C6144SG npn (?????? IS?????? = 3.500p???????? BF?????? = 335??????????
+NF?????? = 1????????????? VAF????? = 9????????????? IKF????? = 13???????????
+ISE????? = 50.00p???????? NE?????? = 2????????????? BR?????? = 160??????????
+NR?????? = 1????????????? VAR????? = 26???????????? IKR????? = 2.9??????????
+ISC????? = 230.0p???????? NC?????? = 2????????????? RB?????? = 910.0m???????
+IRB????? = 100.0m???????? RBM????? = 22.20m???????? RE?????? = 20.50m???????
+RC?????? = 3.300m???????? XTB????? = 1.9??????????? EG?????? = 1.11?????????
+XTI????? = 3????????????? CJE????? = 1.420n???????? VJE????? = 750.0m???????
+MJE????? = 383.0m???????? TF?????? = 450p?????????? XTF????? = 7????????????
+VTF????? = 1.000K???????? ITF????? = 20???????????? PTF????? = 0????????????
+CJC????? = 230.0p???????? VJC????? = 520.0m???????? MJC????? = 418.0m???????
+XCJC???? = 1????????????? TR?????? = 1.000n???????? FC?????? = 500.0m???????
+KF?????? = 0????????????? AF?????? = 1????????????? )???????????????????????
*????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
.ENDL 2SC6144SG

.ENDL? should be ENDS

LTspice can't run with .endl

Regards
PhB
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

[email protected]
 

Just for the record, Yahoo Messenger, the pioneer among Instant messaging will be dead from today and will no longer supported, I have been Yahoo Messenger user for over 10 yrs and will loose all my worldwide contacts...!!!!
CRIES..
AG
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

[email protected]
 

Just for the record, Yahoo Messenger , one of the pioneers in Instant Messaging is shutting down as of today,, I have been a ?user for over 10 years and will loose my world wide contacts... Compare that to Skype which ?changed hands to Microsoft....
Cries
AG
Re: Probing phase

Steve Kale
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Actually I just now found the problem with the missing model definition statement although I don¡¯t understand why it is one. ?In my older schematic I had, at one stage, wanted to test the impact of a different pass transistor and rather than use a .inc statement for this new transistor¡¯s subcircuit statement I had pasted it directly into the circuit (see below). ?If I make it a comment, I no longer get the error message in relation to the missing model statement for Qd44vh10. ?If I make it a Spice directive I do - even though I am not using the subcircuit at all in the sim and the error doesn¡¯t relate to the 2sc6144sg at all. ?

???

Now, the sub 1kHz behaviour remains the same as the image I had uploaded in the zip file (i.e. different from my new circuit) so I need to track down what¡¯s causing that difference.



2SC6144SG SPICE PARAMETER ***
* DATE : 2015/03/13 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
* Temp = 27 deg

.SUBCKT 2SC6144SG 1 2 3
Q1 1 2 3 ?C6144SG ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
.MODEL C6144SG npn ( ? ? ? IS ? ? ? = 3.500p ? ? ? ? BF ? ? ? = 335 ? ? ? ? ??
+NF ? ? ? = 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?VAF ? ? ?= 9 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?IKF ? ? ?= 13 ? ? ? ? ? ?
+ISE ? ? ?= 50.00p ? ? ? ? NE ? ? ? = 2 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?BR ? ? ? = 160 ? ? ? ? ??
+NR ? ? ? = 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?VAR ? ? ?= 26 ? ? ? ? ? ? IKR ? ? ?= 2.9 ? ? ? ? ??
+ISC ? ? ?= 230.0p ? ? ? ? NC ? ? ? = 2 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?RB ? ? ? = 910.0m ? ? ? ?
+IRB ? ? ?= 100.0m ? ? ? ? RBM ? ? ?= 22.20m ? ? ? ? RE ? ? ? = 20.50m ? ? ? ?
+RC ? ? ? = 3.300m ? ? ? ? XTB ? ? ?= 1.9 ? ? ? ? ? ?EG ? ? ? = 1.11 ? ? ? ? ?
+XTI ? ? ?= 3 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?CJE ? ? ?= 1.420n ? ? ? ? VJE ? ? ?= 750.0m ? ? ? ?
+MJE ? ? ?= 383.0m ? ? ? ? TF ? ? ? = 450p ? ? ? ? ? XTF ? ? ?= 7 ? ? ? ? ? ??
+VTF ? ? ?= 1.000K ? ? ? ? ITF ? ? ?= 20 ? ? ? ? ? ? PTF ? ? ?= 0 ? ? ? ? ? ??
+CJC ? ? ?= 230.0p ? ? ? ? VJC ? ? ?= 520.0m ? ? ? ? MJC ? ? ?= 418.0m ? ? ? ?
+XCJC ? ? = 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?TR ? ? ? = 1.000n ? ? ? ? FC ? ? ? = 500.0m ? ? ? ?
+KF ? ? ? = 0 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?AF ? ? ? = 1 ? ? ? ? ? ? ?) ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
* ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
.ENDL 2SC6144SG ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
* ?Information herein is for example only; ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
* ?it is not guaranteed for volume production. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ??
* ON Semiconductor

On 9 Aug 2016, at 11:11, Steve ?wrote:

I have poured over the two schematics including all value/spice line statements (CTRL-left click on a device) and can see no differences. ?I can¡¯t run the old schematic at the moment as I¡¯m currently getting an error ¡°missing model definition for QD44VH10¡± even though I clearly have the .inc statement for the model file (I have even deleted the Spice directive - it¡¯s not a comment - and added it again) and CTRL-left click on every QD44VH10 device reveals exactly the same as the new file I posted. (Both .asc files sit in the same folder and so both have access to the same model text file.) I will go back to it at some point (and may even check older versions via Mac¡¯s Time Machine facility) as I do want to see if the sub 1k behaviour remains the same. ?
Re: No XP?

 

Hello Rick,

The reason is simple.
Mike cannot support XP with the latest Microsoft and Intel compiler tools. These tools only support WIN 7 and newer operating systems.

Best regards,
Helmut
Re: Probing phase

Steve Kale
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý


On 9 Aug 2016, at 07:17, Andy wrote:


It can't be either/or.? It must be only one of them, depending on how you have kept track of polarities.? Phase margin can be >90 degrees, so it's not the one that is closer (which forces it to be <90 degrees).

The fact that you added a minus sign to the thing being plotted, adds -180 degrees to the phase plot.


Duh. ?The first point makes sense. ?I¡¯ve clearly been getting confused between the graph portraying phase (excluding the op amp's 180 degrees) and phase margin directly. Plus the impact of the minus sign. ?Of course, in the example I posted, if it is not applied then the graph would read +89 degrees. If it is then the graph reads -91 degrees. It seems odd to talk about a negative margin but Helmut had some time ago told me to plot with the minus sign.

??

? ?"[Incidentally, a few days ago LTspice produced the plot in Phase and Gain Margin - old.jpg. ...
? ? At this stage I can only (very gingerly) conclude that this resulted from the update to LTspice.? Eek...]"

It's very unlikely.

There probably was a difference between your circuits.? But they can be hard to find.? Sometimes, comparing the .net files makes it easier to find their differences.

One problem with visually comparing schematics, is that attributes can be made not visible.

? ?"...?problems with the schematic no longer recognising .inc statements ..."

That should not have happened either, and points to something being wrong in the schematic, or with the included files themselves.? Typo?


I have poured over the two schematics including all value/spice line statements (CTRL-left click on a device) and can see no differences. ?I can¡¯t run the old schematic at the moment as I¡¯m currently getting an error ¡°missing model definition for QD44VH10¡± even though I clearly have the .inc statement for the model file (I have even deleted the Spice directive - it¡¯s not a comment - and added it again) and CTRL-left click on every QD44VH10 device reveals exactly the same as the new file I posted. (Both .asc files sit in the same folder and so both have access to the same model text file.) I will go back to it at some point (and may even check older versions via Mac¡¯s Time Machine facility) as I do want to see if the sub 1k behaviour remains the same. ?However, for now I have just moved on as I am most focused on how to appropriately probe the circuit for the loss of phase margin. I want to understand how each piece of the circuit degrade phase margin beyond the 180 degrees from the op amp. ?Of course, when I don¡¯t have confidence I am using LTspice properly in this regard it becomes rather hard to have confidence in the results.?


Sorry, your questions are very complicated and it's late.? I'll try to write more later.

Andy

I very much appreciate it Andy.

I¡¯m also focused on ¡®disconnects¡¯** between the two forms of analysis: ?top circuit AC injection at Vin and modelling Vout vs freq for line rejection and bottom circuit loop gain and phase analysis. ?If, for example, I make a change to the output caps in the bottom circuit such that UGF is extended (output cap pole or zero is affected) and/or greater loop gain is applied I would expect the identical change in the top circuit to extend the line rejection in similar fashion (greater feedback being applied or being applied to higher frequencies). ?Yet it doesn¡¯t.?

** disconnects that may well be just my lack of knowledge


regards

Steve
Re: PWL file in LTSPICE XVII not working while working in LT spice IV

 

Hello,

Mike told me that he will fix this PWL problem in the 32bit version in the next release.

Best regards,
Helmut
Re: PMBFJ620/2SK2145 or any other dual JFET-models exist for LTspice?

 

Thanks! I'll give these a try. :)
Re: PMBFJ620/2SK2145 or any other dual JFET-models exist for LTspice?

 

Hi.
.MODEL KPS104A NJF VTO=-0.4 BETA=0.002 LAMBDA=0.005 RD=20 RS=15 IS=1.145e-13 CGD=1.2p CGS=4p PB=0.5 B=1 KF=5e-18 AF=0.5 FC=0.5 MFG=USSR
.MODEL KPS104V NJF VTO=-0.9 BETA=0.0015 LAMBDA=0.008 RD=20 RS=15 IS=1.145e-13 CGD=1.2p CGS=4p PB=0.5 B=1 KF=5e-18 AF=0.5 FC=0.5 MFG=USSR
.MODEL KPS104G NJF VTO=-1.5 BETA=0.001 LAMBDA=0.01 RD=20 RS=15 IS=1.145e-13 CGD=1.2p CGS=4p PB=0.5 B=1 KF=5e-18 AF=0.5 FC=0.5 MFG=USSR

.MODEL LSK389A NJF BETA=0.0378643 VTO=-0.4025156 LAMBDA=4.783719m IS=3.55773E-14 N=1 RD=10.6565 RS=6.8790487 CGD=3.99E-11 CGS=4.06518E-11 PB=0.981382 MJ=0.794653 FC=0.5 KF=5e-18 AF=1
.MODEL LSK389B NJF BETA=0.0350699 VTO=-0.5375582 LAMBDA=4.951m IS=2.76212E-14 N=1 RD=7.82168 RS=6.9525888 CGD=4.36E-11 CGS=4.36E-11 PB=1.2 MJ=0.8892205 FC=0.5 KF=5e-18 AF=1
.MODEL LSK389C NJF BETA=0.0278541 VTO=-0.800434 LAMBDA=0.0122435 IS=2.45217E-14 N=1 RD=12 RS=5.8 CGD=4.22E-11 CGS=4.23E-11 PB=0.9265487 MJ=0.6098477 FC=0.5 KF=4e-18 AF=1

.MODEL 2SK389BL NJF (VTO=-2.5 BETA=6M LAMBDA=1.2M RD=4.95 RS=4.45 IS=6.32F PB=1 FC=.5 CGS=71.2P CGD=18.9P)
.MODEL 2SK389 NJF (VTO=-2 BETA=20M LAMBDA=600U RD=7 RS=6.3 IS=1.58F PB=1 FC=.5 CGS=19.5P CGD=5.5P)

.model J2SK389BL NJF (Vto=-2.5 Beta=6m Lambda=1m2 Rd=4.95 Rs=4.45 Is=6f32 Pb=1 Fc=.5 Cgs=71p2 Cgd=18p9

Bordodynov.


09.08.2016, 11:12, "rickard.steffensen@... [LTspice]" <ltspice@...>:

As topic states, im looking for dual JFET-models. Must be something out there?

Regards,

Rickard
Re: No XP?

Gunoi Nare
 

A better solution would be to Install VBOX from ORACLE.
G.


From: "Andy ai.egrps@... [LTspice]"
To: [LTspice] group
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2016 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: [LTspice] Re: No XP?

?
Craig wrote:

? ?"
?
Maybe someone who's locked into XP could try dual-booting with Linux to run LTspice and let us know how it goes."

I'm pretty sure at least two people here have already reported that LTspiceXVII does run in Linux with Wine emulating XP.

I contend that Wine emulating XP is not 100% the same as Microsoft Windows XP, so to me at least, it's not surprising if it runs differently on an XP-emulator than on XP itself.

Andy
Re: No XP?

Gunoi Nare
 

Well said.

Live Long and Prosper.
G.


From: "iamrogerholden@... [LTspice]"
To: LTspice@...
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2016 4:28 AM
Subject: [LTspice] Re: No XP?

?
I am seriously concerned about the implications of this thread, I only use XP as it is compatible with all my other tools, does not randomly crash/freeze up and is no longer patched/botched by microsoft so is actually stable. I have no intention of installing later malware into my machines. I don't care about running the latest & greatest LTspice either but will the XT compatible IV continue to be available and do I have to prevent LTspice updates to avoid an automatic XVII installation ?
PMBFJ620/2SK2145 or any other dual JFET-models exist for LTspice?

 

As topic states, im looking for dual JFET-models. Must be something out there?


Regards,

Rickard
Re: Probing phase

 

Steve wrote a rather lengthy message, including:

? ?"I read phase margin as the absolute difference between the reading for phase at the UGF and 0 or 180/-180 whichever is closer."

It can't be either/or.? It must be only one of them, depending on how you have kept track of polarities.? Phase margin can be >90 degrees, so it's not the one that is closer (which forces it to be <90 degrees).

The fact that you added a minus sign to the thing being plotted, adds -180 degrees to the phase plot.

? ?"[Incidentally, a few days ago LTspice produced the plot in Phase and Gain Margin - old.jpg. ...
? ? At this stage I can only (very gingerly) conclude that this resulted from the update to LTspice.? Eek...]"

It's very unlikely.

There probably was a difference between your circuits.? But they can be hard to find.? Sometimes, comparing the .net files makes it easier to find their differences.

One problem with visually comparing schematics, is that attributes can be made not visible.

? ?"...?problems with the schematic no longer recognising .inc statements ..."

That should not have happened either, and points to something being wrong in the schematic, or with the included files themselves.? Typo?

Sorry, your questions are very complicated and it's late.? I'll try to write more later.

Andy
Re: Help

 

Hi.
See ,

,



Bordodynov.

09.08.2016, 03:48, "Andy ai.egrps@... [LTspice]" <ltspice@...>:

W. Warren wrote:

? ?"

I'm pretty sure that IS the Help utility that comes with LTspice!? If you have LTspice installed, you already have that entire document.

baqqali anass
?, this group has a Links section, located here:



In that area, you can find links to many tutorials, and some books.

Regards,
Andy
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

 

Hello.
With me, too, it happened. Then I sent the replica of the main page groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/LTspice/info ?(not from the mail) while my post appear at once (but of course under a different name)

Bordodynov.
?
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

 

That's good to know, I thought only a few people can answer the post. I have no place in answering questions on LTSpice, so I never attempted to response to any other posts. I happen to have been designing TIA for many years, so I attempt to help out on that particular thread. My last one still has not show up yet. it's totally out of sync with the thread.
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

[email protected]
 

I disagree... Yahoo hs lost a lot of people and Verizon is not bothering to sign reqs to replace them... I should know....
Cheers
AG
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

 

? ?"Why does it feel like Verizon is bleeding Yahoo groups to death in a slow painful way???"

They aren't.? That is your imagination talking to you.

Verizon hasn't touched Yahoo yet.? Whatever is happening to Yahoo today, is Yahoo's own doing (plus all the daily dangers of being who they are).

Andy

?
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

[email protected]
 

Why does it feel like Verizon is bleeding Yahoo groups to death in a slow painful way???

Cheers
AG
Re: Takes two day for my post to show up

 

? ?"I notice if I start the thread like this, it'll show up right away. But if I answer other thread, it takes 2 days.?"

That might be so, or not.? Others have reported there doesn't seem to be much rhyme-or-reason to it.

Someone else says that the size of the message affects the delay.? That seems to be true too ... sometimes!

All I can say is, we have no control over it.? New members' first messages here are delayed pending approval, but you are not a new member so that doesn't affect you.

Regards,
Andy

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