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Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
rainbowsally
Andy wrote:
<snip> Understood. But they can be recreated using discretes. This truly isn't a problem.Nope. Not a problem. Those can be replaced by actual transistors onceI think you misunderstood. The macro-model contains FAKE elements <snip> And making use of these macro-models, can create problems (these arePrecisely. :-) But there aren't many models or even internal schematics on the internet. So I thought I'd start... and after I did one xx339 comparator with some degree of success (from an image of the schematic). Someone around here did the entire NE555 chip and that has been extremely useful to me. I'd like to do the same with a few opamps and stuff. I'm not a very good reader. I can parse a schematic MUCH better than I can parse words, but if you give me some realistic search terms, I'd give it a whirl.And no... not going to search old message in this forum. Yow!Well then you are missing out on a TON of useful information! This I don't think I'd want to wade through all the results for "subcircuit", for example because as you say, in "ten years" most of the hits are going to be non-useful and I have dialup which is prohibitively slow for this kind of thing even using Ctrl-F to locate possible hits. But never mind, Andy. I'll figure it out myself eventually. I was just hoping there was an easier way. If your approach is to say, "Give me the answers now, I don't want to Currently spending all "searching" time using datasheetcatalogs.com to find data sheets and manufacturers that I like and mouser.com to look up the same parts to get pricing. Took several hours to find some good prospects for the power output stage for kevin's amp (4th hack with realistic parts). I don't have time. But I'm willing to share the methods and results with everyone here. Hope that's not a problem. ;-) Do you ever use the Internet? Google? Wikipedia? So if you areIt's not my project. It's Kevin's. And it's Gandolf's. And it's going to blow the doors off and come in at 1/4th the price of a cookbook solution. |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
--- In LTspice@..., rainbowsally <rainbowsally@...> wrote:
Over MANY years I've tried lots of netlist to Schematic conversion programs. To be honest none of them work well for Analog circuits. For digital schematics the best I ever saw was from a company called Veiwlogic, but this company has long since faded from the scene. Many professional IC design packages include netlist to Schematic conversion because it is sometimes needed when you are debugging digital Logic that was auto generated from Verilog code. Unfortunately the tool you are searching for does not exist, so save yourself time searching and learn to read Spice netlists and draw the schematic by hand, then reenter it into LTspice and compare the schematic's netlist with the original netlist. There are automatic tools for comparing netlists, typically I'd use the Layout Vs Schematic (LVS) comparison tool BUT enter two netlists instead of a Layout and schematic. -Robert |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
Ray Merewether
The netlist for a subcircuit is essentially a "directed graph" (not a Cartesian graph, nor radial graph like you drew in high school) See the "tutorial/GraphDrawing" in the Mathematica help.
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Mathematica has plotting tools for "graphs" and "directed graphs". Any edge and any vertex can be given a name. Beyond that, Mathematica has built in the ability to use any Mathematica object for a node label or edge label (or more generally for any legend entry, plot point, etc.) and such functionality can be nested arbitrarily deep. There are 7 precanned "Methods" for organizing the drawing. None of these are likely to pretty like analogspiceman pretty, but if you got lucky, one of the methods might provide an aha! perspective. The most obvious problem is that a human wants to see functionally related nodes clumped together and the functional information is generally not available in the LTSpice netlist. Using BFI, you could look at your first attempt, and decide that it would be smart to assign each connection to node zero in the LTSpice subcircuit netlist to a separate vertex in the output graph and use a little image of a ground symbol for each of those vertices. Similarly for each node YOU judge to be worthy of being given a netlist name as opposed to a netlist number. To fully automate the process you'd probably want to use LISP or Prolog and plan on spending the rest of your life writing code to run on a cluster. -----Original Message-----
From: LTspice@... [mailto:LTspice@...] On Behalf Of rainbowsally Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 12:39 PM To: LTspice@... Subject: [LTspice] Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter) I love the scematics (especially analogspiceman's.. :-) they are beautiful. I can even read my own! But I'd like to literally see how some of these subcircuits are modeled so I can see why things behave as they do. For example I got TLC555 which I believe is a CMOS 555 timer (and they're cheap and giving 'em away right now), but when I measure the input currents they are identical to the old NE555 model we have in our lib folders somewhere. So what I'm asking is this. How do I get a visual representation of the components MINUS the *.asy file. And I don't care how many steps it might take. Might even write a converter program if there isn't a way to do this inside ltspice. Drawing them component by component is on my don't-do list. :-) ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a s
I wish there was. I understand Cadence claims to have such a tool... sets you back ~$100K >:-o
So, if you want to see, you have to grunt >:-} On the other side of the argument, though, sometimes you don't care to see the innards. I regularly import a customer's portion of a chip into my design, simply by connecting their netlist up as a subcircuit. Thus I can simulate the whole enchilada proving my additions. - Jim Thompson |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
I wrote:
rainbowsally wrote:It is NOT trivial to convert a netlist of one form or another, into a Not talking about a netlist.... I don't think. (???)There are all kinds of netlists. A netlist is generically just a file that has all the information about connectivity of your circuit. Most people who inquire about converting a SPICE model to a schematic, are starting with a subcircuit, which IS a SPICE netlist. It is a text file that lists all the components as well as how they are interconnected. I thought that was what you were starting with. By the way, the *.asy file is just the symbol you see on your schematic. It itself has NONE of the information about the schematic it represents. I think you misunderstood. The macro-model contains FAKE elementsMany IC models are macro-models and contain functional equivalents forNope. Not a problem. Those can be replaced by actual transistors once that stand in for whole sections of transistors and stuff. Say you've got an IC op-amp. Someone can replace the whole op-amp with a VCVS, which is just an E-element in SPICE. Doing so loses all of the components that made up that IC! You would not be able to come along later and restore the actual transistors to the schematic, unless you (somehow) also had a schematic in your other hand for the insides of the IC op-amp that was used. So I'm saying the SPICE model you have for (say) that TLC555 you have, *might* not even have any transistors in it! It might be just a functional equivalent of a generic '555. (Hopefully not!) And making use of these macro-models, can create problems (these are the "problems" I alluded to before). A simple VCVS used as a macro-model does not clip. A real op-amp does. And no... not going to search old message in this forum. Yow!Well then you are missing out on a TON of useful information! This group has a decade's worth of experience in them thar' archives. If your approach is to say, "Give me the answers now, I don't want to see the answer to the same question you wrote last (week, year, whatever)", then I'm not so sure I'd want to help. Hopefully you will reconsider. Do you ever use the Internet? Google? Wikipedia? So if you are willing to find an answer to something on the Internet that was written two years ago, why won't you do the same here in this forum? Good luck with your project. Andy |
Re: attn: dual booters
rainbowsally
BTW, that wasn't really the problem with the url I posted. When I joined the copied url from the actual file (which contains the user's id and isn't the real path) and the path to the files area, I accidentally left an extra '//' in the path.
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I'll be more careful in the future. Andy wrote: The spaces prefixing the folder names are apparently a convenience forThose spaces are intentionally there, in some of the folder |
Re: Kevin -- Tip: a cheap full load resistor
For all who were E-Mailed off list I am sorry I did not realise till too late. That was my mistake and will stop.?
Best wishes and good luck at what you do. You all did help out a stupid electronic person thou. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: Kevin -- Tip: a cheap full load resistor
rainbowsally
Yeah. Us old hippies need to stick together. :-)
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Absolutely the best of luck to you, Kevin. Email me offlist if there's anything you think I might be able to help with. Kevin Byrne wrote: For the record Helmut I am not a computer geek, electronic geek but I have been getting 100 to 300 E-mails a day quite a few of the stupid kind. I do not know how to spot spam, hackers or any thing else. I do not reply like you said due to my understanding your words and respect for others. Please accept my apology for just being new, not a smart ass. |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
rainbowsally
Andy wrote:
Yes, but not everything *I* need.So what I'm asking is this. How do I get a visual representation of theIt is not done by LTspice. (LTspice needs no schematic representation It is NOT trivial to convert a netlist of one form or another, into aNot talking about a netlist.... I don't think. (???) Talking bout a literal *.asy file which should have all the info in it necessary to make some kind of representation of as a schematic -- even if it's an IC block with 100 pins all on one side. the sym file can be modified. The question has been asked here a few times before. Some researchOuch. Many IC models are macro-models and contain functional equivalents forNope. Not a problem. Those can be replaced by actual transistors once the connections are identified. Depending on what you are looking for, a full schematic may not beIf I could see before/after shots of a couple of them I'd have something to start with. As it is, I'm just getting up to speed on the "heirarchy" file.asc (top) |-- file.asy (schematic) `-- top.sub (external assembly of .model's) Currently wobbly but ok with *.asy, and completely flummoxed by *.sub. which I'd like to be able to convert to/from. Thanks for the reply Andy! :-) And no... not going to search old message in this forum. Yow! Having enough probs identifying a small realistic set of good cheap transistors, especially for driver and power output for an audio amp. |
Re: attn: dual booters
The spaces prefixing the folder names are apparently a convenience forThose spaces are intentionally there, in some of the folder (directory) names, to group the important folders near the top of the (alphabetical) listing, on the group's website. I think that was Helmut's doing, but he is one of a few group moderators so it might be one of the others too. Andy |
Re: Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
So what I'm asking is this. How do I get a visual representation of theIt is not done by LTspice. (LTspice needs no schematic representation of what a circuit or subcircuit looks like ... the SPICE netlist has everything it needs.) It is NOT trivial to convert a netlist of one form or another, into a human-readable schematic. The question has been asked here a few times before. Some research has been done, and some of the previous discussions touched on some of that research and a few other programs that offer such capability. Try searching through the group's archives for those earlier message threads. Many IC models are macro-models and contain functional equivalents for whole blocks of circuitry. Some IC macro-models don't even contain a single transistor! And that can give rise to various problems. Depending on what you are looking for, a full schematic may not be needed. It might be possible to trace out everything connected to the input pin in question, and get a better handle on why it behaves the way it does. Note: it may not be pretty what you discover about the subcircuit; many subcircuits are poorly constructed and/or used improperly! Andy (PS: I'll bet that some of us SPICE oldtimers got to be pretty good at turning SPICE netlists into hand-drawn schematics, for those times when we really needed to know what a circuit looks like.) |
Is there an easy way to convert subciruits to schematics? (I.e., a sub2asc converter)
rainbowsally
I love the scematics (especially analogspiceman's.. :-) they are beautiful. I can even read my own!
But I'd like to literally see how some of these subcircuits are modeled so I can see why things behave as they do. For example I got TLC555 which I believe is a CMOS 555 timer (and they're cheap and giving 'em away right now), but when I measure the input currents they are identical to the old NE555 model we have in our lib folders somewhere. So what I'm asking is this. How do I get a visual representation of the components MINUS the *.asy file. And I don't care how many steps it might take. Might even write a converter program if there isn't a way to do this inside ltspice. Drawing them component by component is on my don't-do list. :-) |
Re: Kevin -- Tip: a cheap full load resistor
For the record Helmut ?I am not a computer geek, electronic geek but I have been getting 100 to 300 E-mails?a day quite a few of the stupid kind. I do not know how to spot spam, hackers or any thing else. I do not reply like you said due to my understanding your words and respect for others. Please accept my apology for just being new, not a smart ass.
Not my style. I did receive a lot of help thou, and have a number of books on order and am a lot further along in my study's of audio equipment. I am a disabled Vet., a certified auto mechanic and know the value of study and asking questions. Best to you and advise as I am a person who listens and takes a beating and changes when I am wrong Kevin [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: attn: dual booters
rainbowsally
The "%" character is 'hexidecimal' for a <space> (0x20 or decimal 32) needed because spaces will terminate urls and urls can't be quoted like normal filesystem paths.
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The spaces prefixing the folder names are apparently a convenience for posting aesthetically pleasing url paths to places in our files area. Andy wrote: Just a sidenote here, the link is not working.Actually, that "%20" (and the "/%20Util/") is supposed to be there. |
Re: Network (.Net) analysis using LTSpice
--- In LTspice@..., "Majid" <rafei.majid@...> wrote:
Hello Majid, After you have run the simulation, you can export the results. Make waveform window the active window. File -> Export A dialog window will pop up. Choose the items you want to be exported. Best regards, Helmut |
Re: I cannot access the File of LTspice.
K. D. Sarchet
Andy,
I fully understand Shiggy's issue. I have 5 different yahoo ID's. I use one of them, my ham radio ID, for email access to most of the technical groups that I belong to. That said, there are some of those groups that I cannot get web access to with the same ID. When attempting to, the yahoo web pages want me to either change ID's to one of my other ID's (and it lists my others) or it wants me to cancel my email access and use web access only. I've had this issue many years, and have tried to get yahoo to fix the problem. 73 de WY5R - KD <> JT65A Power Calculator From: LTspice@... [mailto:LTspice@...] On Behalf Of Andy Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:46 PM To: LTspice@... Subject: Re: [LTspice] Re: I can not access the File of LTspice. Hi Shiggy-san, You wrote: My old email address (mr.shigematsu@...<mailto:mr.shigematsu%40gmail.com> ) is blocked in yahoo system, I think.How do you believe that it is blocked? Yahoo has many components, including Yahoo email, Yahoo groups (like this one), and others. My Gmail email address is not related to Yahoo. I do not use that email address to access or download the [LTspice] files. It seems like you were trying to use your email address to try to download the [LTspice] files, but I don't understand why you would do that. But there is a Username (Yahoo calls it a "Yahoo! ID") that you need to use when you sign in to Yahoo, which you must do before you can see and download the [LTspice] files. You can only use a Yahoo! ID to sign in to Yahoo. You cannot use a Gmail username to login to Yahoo (and you can't use a Yahoo! ID to login to Gmail). The Yahoo! ID is usually just a name. Yours might be "mr1.shigematsu" ... but Yahoo also lets you type it as "mr1.shigematsu@... <mailto:mr1.shigematsu%40yahoo.com> ". They are not really asking for your email address when you sign in; they are looking for your Yahoo! ID. Andy |
Re: I can not access the File of LTspice.
rainbowsally
Hi Shiggy.
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It's might be a login error at yahoo itself. That could explain the "three steps" to log in. Yahoo might not read Kanji? Does it work better or worse with Java turned on or off? You might try to copy/paste stuff you do not understand to someone here in this group -- especially if anyone here speaks Japanese. Note: The "three steps" may be because the login didn't work. If you mistype your password, for example, you will be forwarded to a screen where you are told you can get your password in your email box. Best to log out of Yahoo afterward as well because last time I checked Yahoo was selling people the right to track you on the internet (including beacons) and though they claimed you could request being removed from these (26 at the time) internet creeps there was no guarantee that they'd comply... which several of them didn't. ÖØËɺê²ý wrote: Hi Andy-san! |
Re: attn: dual booters
Just a sidenote here, the link is not working.Actually, that "%20" (and the "/%20Util/") is supposed to be there. But the reason the earlier link didn't work, was that it had a double slash ("//") in it where it shouldn't be. wrong-> right-> Andy |
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