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Re: Strange impedance curve
I used to get strange differences between linear and log scales in earlier
version of LTspice, though I haven't had any in the last year or two. They were never explained, but they certainly disappeared. If it's not an early version, have a look at the no of points per octave you are using. If you have too few there can be some very strange plotting as the otherwise seemingly excellent interpolation does its best with the derivatives it's given. A bouncing ball shape is one definite symptom of this. CT On 18 September 2011 20:15, gasoltroll <johan.lans@...> wrote: ** [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
--- In LTspice@..., "Suusi M-B" <smalcolmbrown@...> wrote:
great Suusi :-), best regards, Leo |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
Oops Sorry
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Found the problem and fixed it It turns out that I managed to miss the p from the grid plate capacitance so it went from 1.6pf to 1.6 farads hence the weird results I do wish the LTspice's editor didn¡¯t default to overtype every time you paste into a document Suusi Malcolm-Brown -----Original Message-----
From: LTspice@... [mailto:LTspice@...] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: 18 September 2011 22:16 To: LTspice@... Subject: Re: [LTspice] Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed In message <j55l56+a39e@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Charly Engineering <charly020664@...> writes: --- In LTspice@..., John Woodgate <jmw@...> wrote:They are clearly very different types of model; the EC/PC86 uses a B-source while the EC81 uses parameters. The transient simulation failure shows that the EC81 model doesn't work, but I don't know why. I don't see any error in it, but I might not recognise one if it bit me. I'm just wondering if LTspice understands those parameters without some extra information. The result is even more bizarre if you delete the 50 ¦ÌF! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
They are clearly very different types of model; the EC/PC86 uses aThe extra informations for the EC81 are in the .subckt TRIODE in the Koren_Tubes.cir. I think they use subcircuits from subcircuits :-)... best regards, Leo |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
John Woodgate
In message <j55l56+a39e@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Charly
Engineering <charly020664@...> writes: --- In LTspice@..., John Woodgate <jmw@...> wrote:They are clearly very different types of model; the EC/PC86 uses a B-source while the EC81 uses parameters. The transient simulation failure shows that the EC81 model doesn't work, but I don't know why. I don't see any error in it, but I might not recognise one if it bit me. I'm just wondering if LTspice understands those parameters without some extra information. The result is even more bizarre if you delete the 50 ¦ÌF! -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
--- In LTspice@..., John Woodgate <jmw@...> wrote:
Maybe the models differ in some vital respect. Please upload your EC86uploaded, thanks, Leo ... |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
John Woodgate
In message <j55k6t+5cer@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Charly Engineering <charly020664@...> writes:
I don't understand why the EC86-transient-analyse is succesful and the EC81 with the Koren_Tube-model in nearly the same circuit not.Maybe the models differ in some vital respect. Please upload your EC86 .asc and model. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
It would help if you told us what you are trying to make a simulationYes, I work at noise-matched active antennas. The Rser and Cser of the voltage-source simulate a electrical short antenna at about 1 MHz. I would not try to use a tube, but unfortunately I need big signal solidity up to fields of 20 V/m or 30 V/m for usage near a big transmitter. I try to aspire a bandwidth from 10 kHz to min. 30 Mhz. 10 kHz is not simple with a tube. I first tried with an EC86, that works, but an EC81 is much more better like my databook told me. It is the first time, I used a Koren_tube model from the lib. For the EC86 I used another model. Don't think about the 1 mH-transformer, it's only for testing here. I don't understand why the EC86-transient-analyse is succesful and the EC81 with the Koren_Tube-model in nearly the same circuit not. thanx, best regards, Leo |
Re: simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
John Woodgate
In message <j55dke+dhss@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Charly Engineering <charly020664@...> writes:
I asked here for a model for the EC81, Suusi Malcom-Brown-B was so kindly to add the model to the Koren_tubes.cir-lib.-Everything delivers curious results. You have just a 1 mV input signal, which at low frequencies is attenuated further by the 18 pF capacitor and the 1 meg resistor, and the EC81's input capacitance. Then you ac sweep goes to 500 MHz, at which frequency the 1 mH anode load has an enormous impedance and is quite impracticable. It would help if you told us what you are trying to make a simulation of. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Strange impedance curve
Hi
i'm looking at an impedance curve of a non-ideal tantalum capacitor in LTSpice. The test circuit and impedance curve is seen in this screengrab: The spice file is here . So, the imdpedance curve shows the expected impedance minimum, but also an unexpected maximum at about 100MHz, where there is also a polarity switch in phase. This feature does not show up if I do an impedance plot in octave: octave:1> f = [1000:1000:1e9]; octave:2> C = 2e-3C = 0.0020000 octave:3> R = 2e-3R = 0.0020000 octave:4> L = 1e-9L = 1.0000e-09 octave:5> z = R + f.*2*pi*j*L-1./(f.*2*pi*j*C) octave:6> loglog(f,abs(z)) octave:7> semilogx(f,atand(imag(z)./real(z))) Which result in these plots The parameters in the octave code are the same as in LTSpice component. Anyone know where this comes from? The phases look pretty different, is there something wrong with the test circuit? |
simulation of EC81 with the new added subckt to Koren_Tubes.cir failed
Hi,
I asked here for a model for the EC81, Suusi Malcom-Brown-B was so kindly to add the model to the Koren_tubes.cir-lib.- Now I have the problem that a transient analyse delivers curious results.- I'm not very experienced with tubes, so I've uploaded the EC81-test-files to the folder temp. Perhaps s.o. can look, that would be great. pre-thanx, best regards Leo |
Re: model, subckt tube EC81 = 6R4
John Woodgate
In message <4E762028.8050305@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Ganesan <dg1@...> writes:
My personal experience is de-rating the heaters to about 90% and putting a mini fan.. can double or triple the life of these old valve baseed equipment..I agree with the fan, but I don't see how you can show double or triple life, unless you are basing it on 1970s poor-quality products (mainly bad vacuum and bad welding). Well-made valve/tubes typically last 10 years, so to show triple life you would have to run tests for 50 years. I have some 50 year old test equipment that still works within spec with the valves that were in there when I bought the gear in 1984. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Re: What changes would make LTspice better?
John Woodgate
In message <1316365434.4717.56.camel@Yoda>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Peter <pmoss@...> writes:
Why is LINUX not a threat to windows?There is no truth in the rumour that the release name of "Windows 8" will be 'Eyelynucks'.(;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Re: What changes would make LTspice better?
Peter
On Sun, 2011-09-18 at 12:11 +0000, LTspice@... wrote:
Re: What changes would make LTspice better?Nope, I did not expect many to agree ;-) They are not new users ;-) But the point is a problem/suggestion was highlighted and quite correctly so. The solution must also be a solution that addresses the problem because the problem exists and will continue to as long as it is not addressed. Is there any point in trying to fine tune the ECU when the wheels are falling off? It is quite obvious and possibly understandable the annoyance and intolerance many have of repeated beginner questions. That is a very very obvious and simple indicator that the place to begin is to address the most common problems and difficulties beginners have. Not to try to circumvent addressing the problem. Goodness, windows users have difficulty with the F1 key but it is there. LTspice does not have to be the leading "ease of use" program and I am not suggesting that it should be but there are areas that could do with a lot of consideration. LTspice is a great program of that there is no doubt. Can it be better, you bet. Will it be better if it panders and accommodates only the "demands" of expert and experienced users or the general run of the mill user and new user? Who is likely to appreciate any improvement the most? Who gets to reap the benefits of the time, money and effort? Consider what a relief it would be to have those annoying questions diminish by a significant figure. Consider that they are the base of the pyramid, the source of most frustration and reason many will find to give up on LTspice and find something easier more intuitive to use. Do they even care about the technical excellence? Google windows ~8 Billion linux 838,000,000 free ~15 Billion ltspice 526,000 pspice 2,590,000 When the answer is known maybe that will make what I said a lot clearer. I use LINUX on this PC, I'll boot to windows occasionally because wine and LTspice is chronically crippled by the LINUX VIA openchrome drivers which have to be manually installed and setup. I am dinosaur. ;-) LINUX is no longer an insignificant operating system but it is no real threat to Windows or M$ would be making bids. Why is LINUX not a threat to windows? In many aspects it is technically superior..... It does not require user training, more manuals, more tutorials, better help, tinkering with the engine.... There is a lesson in that somewhere. A twitter user probably knows how to say this better. I don't ;-) Thanks Martin for the response and offer but I think all has been said ;-) I'm not trying to ride a hobby horse and it really is up to LT. I have no idea of what LT expects or wants from LTspice and that is vital to know in order to answer this question. I have also been away so apologise if I missed other responses. -- Regards Peter |
Re: model, subckt tube EC81 = 6R4
martin562284
--- In LTspice@..., Ganesan <dg1@...> wrote:
That's interesting - I've never come across anyone who's actually tried that until now - so maybe the old wise one's are not so wise, after all! I must say that I've been working with valves for only about 7 years now and I haven't had problems with any valves in my designs coming to their end of life yet - although they don't get used an awful lot, either. I have a few items of vintage gear that are still running fine, although I haven't checked to see if the valves are still running to spec. putting a mini fan.. can double or triple the life of these old valveYep, I've used mini-fans in a couple of my designs, too. They certainly keep things cool, which can only be good - not just for the valves. But I will defer to yourDefinitely not an expert, just a fellow seeker of knowledge and enlightenment! Martin |
Re: Multiple plot panes
John Woodgate
In message <j555at+95dr@...>, dated Sun, 18 Sep 2011, Tony Casey <tony@...> writes:
Confucius say: Things remain hidden mostly for want of looking. :-)Looking for an analoguespiceman award?(;-) The problem is not looking, it's guessing where to look, on the understanding that the needle may not be in the haystack at all, and it may be a thorn rather than a needle. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK When I point to a star, please look at the star, not my finger. The star will be more interesting. |
Re: model, subckt tube EC81 = 6R4
Ganesan
My personal experience is de-rating the heaters to about 90% and
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putting a mini fan.. can double or triple the life of these old valve baseed equipment.. Putting a series resistor with the heater puts out the same amount of heat in the system... But I will defer to your expertise... Cheers AG On 9/18/2011 11:36 AM, martin562284 wrote:
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Re: model, subckt tube EC81 = 6R4
martin562284
--- In LTspice@..., Ganesan <dg1@...> wrote:
My question is, Whether the plate current to heater coupling isAG, non of the valve (tube) models I've come across (and I've seen quite a few) model the effect of varying heater current or voltage - they simply (attempt) to model the relationship between the electrode voltages and currents. In effect they assume that the heater is working at nominal voltage/current from time zero. If I need to modal the heater current draw when working on power supply designs I usually just use a resistor or current sink. If you are interested in the heater transient behaviour at switch on/off, the guy who runs the DuncanAmps site (www.duncanamps.com) has done some work on this, I believe. You could also take a look at our own Helmut's and analog spiceman's excellent work on filament lamps in the Files section of this group. Please note that running heaters at anything other than nominal voltage current is not recommended. Over OR under can shorten their life. Do be aware that most, if not all, of the models are reasonably accurate only over a limited range. Operation outside of or even near the extremes of the characteristic curves published on the datasheets should not necessarily be considered as real-world behaviour. Martin |
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