¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Date

Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 
Edited

Chris,
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FYI - Your simulation runs OK after changing to the Alternate Solver.
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Control Panel (Settings) > SPICE tab > Solver: change to Alternate.
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When done using the Alternate solver, you might want to change it back to the Normal solver.? Newer versions (24.1.*) of LTspice now have a way to specify which solver to use, but older versions need to be manually changed back to Normal if that is what you normally want.
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Your circuit has much trouble simulating.
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The error log reports three instances of "Questionable use of curly braces" and three (apparently false) Errors, which are probably caused by T.I.'s LM317 SPICE model.? In my experience, those warnings and errors seem to be harmless and do not seem to affect the outcome.? They can be "fixed", if desired, so that those messages do not show up - but it's probably not necessary.
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Then the simulation has great difficulty finding the initial (DC) operating point.? Direct Newton Iteration fails.? GMIN Stepping fails.? Source Stepping fails.? Pseudo-Tran might have succeeded, but I can't be sure.
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Once past that, the transient simulation has considerable difficulty when using the Normal Solver, but only with the Normal Solver.? The .log file is full of Heightened DefCon warnings, and some of the voltages are "funny" and probably wrong.
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My guess is that something in the circuit is oscillating at very high frequency, causing considerable slowness.? Lower frequency oscillations are visible at some nodes, maybe a consequence of a >UHF oscillation.
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I can't make conclusions, but one possibility is that something in this simulation needs the extra few digits of precision of the Alternate Solver.? And maybe there's a bad model.? Since it is the circuit with the ADA8084-2 that has trouble, that one is suspect, but that's all I can say so far.
?
Andy
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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 06:46 PM, John Woodgate wrote:

Yes, it can be fixed, but wouldn't it be better if it didn't happen? Should we ask for it to be changed to only show the model filename?

It is actually this way quite intentionally.? I had a discussion with Mike Engelhardt about it several years ago.
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Auto-generating symbols makes it as easy as possible for anyone to make a symbol without trying.? As such, it needs to encode where the model file lives, on the assumption that it might not already be located in a place where LTspice looks to find model files.? Thus, it saves the whole filespec to the model file, in the symbol.
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Shortening that to just the filename SHOULD (in my opinion) be done, manually, by any LTspice user who wants to have a hand in the simulation process.? But it would break it for other LTspice users who don't care or don't want to understand anything about "what's under the hood".? It would be bad (in my opinion) to change LTspice in a way that makes the Automatic Symbol Generation step fail for many users, especially the newbies.
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Andy
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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, it can be fixed, but wouldn't it be better if it didn't happen? Should we ask for it to be changed to only show the model filename?

On 2025-03-30 23:39, Andy I via groups.io wrote:
That is "easily" fixed and by now I have gotten accustomed to doing that after group members upload their schematics.? It is an unfortunate consequence of letting LTspice auto-generate symbols.?
--
OOO - Own Opinions only If something is true: * as far as we know - it's science *for certain - it's mathematics *unquestionably - it's religion

Virus-free.


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 06:17 PM, John Woodgate wrote:

I don't understand you circuits. What are they supposed to do? Where is the output? I can see it might be the top ends of the diode stacks, but that doesn't work for the circuit that doesn't have a diode stack.

I am not sure but I figured the LM317 might be some sort of current limiter or regulator?? I'm guessing the "output" of those sections is the current through the diodes and current-sensing voltage source at the bottom of each stack.
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The one section without the diode stack doesn't have the LM317 either.? I think it just tests that the current sink (MOSFET + op-amp) below the LM317 does the right thing.? That part of the circuit appears in each of the other three sections.
?

I can't run your sims because your LM317 symbol has the full path to its model which is on your computer only.

That is "easily" fixed and by now I have gotten accustomed to doing that after group members upload their schematics.? It is an unfortunate consequence of letting LTspice auto-generate symbols.? I can't blame the LTspice user for having that.? (Although I think it is quite unnecessary to auto-generate symbols.)
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Not that it matters, but SPICE gives you a short-cut for having multiple diodes in series.? It is the N=<value> instance parameter.? By adding "n=6" to a diode element, it turns it into effectively six individual diodes in series.? With LTspice, you can do that using either of these:
  • Right-click on the text "1N4007" and change it to "1N4007 N=6"; or
  • Ctrl-right-click on the diode symbol and add "N=6" (without quotes) in the Value2 line, and optionally add an X in the Vis. column.
Doing so does not actually change anything (to any significant degree), but it makes the schematic more compact, as well as the circuit matrix.? You might or might not want to "simplify" your schematic this way because seeing six diodes in series conveys meaning.
?
Andy
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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 05:45 PM, Christopher Paul wrote:

In spite of my mistakes, is there something that I can do now to request help?

I have mostly needed to be away from my computer all day today, so I did not yet actually try simulating your circuit.? I only saw that the pieces were there.
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Andy
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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, correct. You have not been banned, so you can still ask for help. But I give you another tip - in future use more explicit subjects than 'test'. Everyone and his cat has a file called 'test'.

I don't understand you circuits. What are they supposed to do? Where is the output? I can see it might be the top ends of the diode stacks, but that doesn't work for the circuit that doesn't have a diode stack.

I can't run your sims because your LM317 symbol has the full path to its model which is on your computer only.

On 2025-03-30 22:45, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:
? In the future, I should continue to post my schematic files in the temp folder. All emails related to my topic should have a unique one and only subject. Correct?
--
OOO - Own Opinions only If something is true: * as far as we know - it's science *for certain - it's mathematics *unquestionably - it's religion

Virus-free.


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I¡¯m sorry.

?

I count one email with a definitely wrong subject: RE: [LTspice] Model of BF970

?

The others have different subject files which I have emailed, but they are each my own:

test.asc

test.asc and ADA4084-2.zip

test_2.zip.

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I see now that I should have kept one email title for all of these, which were the results of problems that Andy requested I fix.

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I use gmail. So:

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??????????????? In the future, I should continue to post my schematic files in the temp folder. All emails related to my topic should have a unique one and only subject. Correct?

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In spite of my mistakes, is there something that I can do now to request help?

?

Apologies,

?

Chris

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tony Casey via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 5:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

No, you didn't correct it. You continued the same thread, but with a different subject.

By "start a new topic", I mean you start a new email thread by either:

  1. Clicking "New Topic", if you're using the group website, or
  2. Clicking "New Message", if you are using Thunderbird, or "Compose", if you're using Gmail.

If you don't do this, the (normally) hidden email header signifies that you have answered an existing message, even if you've changed the subject.

--
Regards,
Tony

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On 30/03/2025 19:26, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Yes, I noticed this and apologized for and corrected it in subsequent posts.

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Regards,

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Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tony Casey via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

Can you please not hijack a thread. Start a new topic. What you did was reply to a message in the "Model of BF970 ?" thread, and simply change the subject.


This is very irritating for anyone that uses threads in their email. client.

--
Regards,
Tony

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On 30/03/2025 15:03, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Apologize for the wrong email heading you just received. This is the corrected one.

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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

No, you didn't correct it. You continued the same thread, but with a different subject.

By "start a new topic", I mean you start a new email thread by either:
  1. Clicking "New Topic", if you're using the group website, or
  2. Clicking "New Message", if you are using Thunderbird, or "Compose", if you're using Gmail.

If you don't do this, the (normally) hidden email header signifies that you have answered an existing message, even if you've changed the subject.

--
Regards,
Tony

On 30/03/2025 19:26, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Yes, I noticed this and apologized for and corrected it in subsequent posts.

?

Regards,

?

Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tony Casey via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

Can you please not hijack a thread. Start a new topic. What you did was reply to a message in the "Model of BF970 ?" thread, and simply change the subject.


This is very irritating for anyone that uses threads in their email. client.

--
Regards,
Tony

?

On 30/03/2025 15:03, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Apologize for the wrong email heading you just received. This is the corrected one.



Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, I noticed this and apologized for and corrected it in subsequent posts.

?

Regards,

?

Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Tony Casey via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 1:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

Can you please not hijack a thread. Start a new topic. What you did was reply to a message in the "Model of BF970 ?" thread, and simply change the subject.


This is very irritating for anyone that uses threads in their email. client.

--
Regards,
Tony

?

On 30/03/2025 15:03, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Apologize for the wrong email heading you just received. This is the corrected one.

?


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Can you please not hijack a thread. Start a new topic. What you did was reply to a message in the "Model of BF970 ?" thread, and simply change the subject.

This is very irritating for anyone that uses threads in their email. client.

--
Regards,
Tony


On 30/03/2025 15:03, Christopher Paul via groups.io wrote:

Apologize for the wrong email heading you just received. This is the corrected one.


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Andy,

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I apologize for the cockpit errors. Subject file has been uploaded.

?

At the top of the test.asc file, I noted that I¡¯m using an old LTspice : 17.1.14

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- Chris

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From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy I via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 11:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Christopher Paul wrote:

??????????????? I added the 1N4007 as a .model statement on the schematic. The LM317 and the ADA4084-2 are in the . ADA4084-2.zip along with the updated test.asc file.

You uploaded the symbol for ADA4098-2 by accident.? It's not the same shape and has an extra pin.

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??????????????? Strangely, in my LTspice, the ADA4084-2 is one of the standard files.?

Yes, it is indeed there in newer versions of LTspice 24 (v24.1).? But not in older versions.

?

Andy

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Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:39 AM, Christopher Paul wrote:

??????????????? I added the 1N4007 as a .model statement on the schematic. The LM317 and the ADA4084-2 are in the . ADA4084-2.zip along with the updated test.asc file.

You uploaded the symbol for ADA4098-2 by accident.? It's not the same shape and has an extra pin.
?

??????????????? Strangely, in my LTspice, the ADA4084-2 is one of the standard files.?

Yes, it is indeed there in newer versions of LTspice 24 (v24.1).? But not in older versions.
?
Andy
?


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi Andy,

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I note your concern about my use of opamp possibly causing conversion problems. But it¡¯s opamp that inexplicably works! It¡¯s the ADA4084-2 which has conversion problems.

?

Regards,

?

Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Christopher Paul via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 10:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc and ADA4084-2.zip

?

Hi Andy,

?

??????????????? I added the 1N4007 as a .model statement on the schematic. The LM317 and the ADA4084-2 are in the . ADA4084-2.zip along with the updated test.asc file.

?

??????????????? Strangely, in my LTspice, the ADA4084-2 is one of the standard files. Sorry about the others.

?

Regards,

?

Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy I via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 9:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

Another stupid mistake on my part.? I wrote:

I don't know if this matters - but it looks like you run the ADA4084 with inputs BEYOND the power supplies.? ...

I had the polarity wrong when I looked at V6.? Never mind!

?

Andy

?


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi Andy,

?

??????????????? I added the 1N4007 as a .model statement on the schematic. The LM317 and the ADA4084-2 are in the . ADA4084-2.zip along with the updated test.asc file.

?

??????????????? Strangely, in my LTspice, the ADA4084-2 is one of the standard files. Sorry about the others.

?

Regards,

?

Chris

?

From: [email protected] <[email protected]> On Behalf Of Andy I via groups.io
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2025 9:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [LTspice] test.asc

?

Another stupid mistake on my part.? I wrote:

I don't know if this matters - but it looks like you run the ADA4084 with inputs BEYOND the power supplies.? ...

I had the polarity wrong when I looked at V6.? Never mind!

?

Andy

?


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

Another stupid mistake on my part.? I wrote:
I don't know if this matters - but it looks like you run the ADA4084 with inputs BEYOND the power supplies.? ...
I had the polarity wrong when I looked at V6.? Never mind!
?
Andy
?


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 

I wrote:
... so voltages can be infinite) and this can cause conversion problems.
Oops.? I meant "convergence problems".


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 
Edited

I don't know if this matters - but it looks like you run the ADA4084 with inputs BEYOND the power supplies.? Its datasheet claims RRIO, but not beyond-RRIO.? Can it work that way?
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Its datasheet says otherwise.? Under Absolute Maximum ratings, Vin must never go below V-, not even by a millivolt, let alone 4 volts below V-.? It seems like that would be a problem and might cause some internal stress.
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[NOTE:? I retract all of the above.? I misread the schematic.]
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Andy


Re: Simulation runs very slowly: test.asc

 
Edited

Can you please include the missing LTspice symbols and SPICE models?? We can't help you without them.
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LM317A_TRANS
ADA4084-2
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(The latter might be in newer LTspice versions, but the computer I am using at this moment does not have them.? I'll have to go to the other.)
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Also, 1N4007's SPICE model is missing.
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You used "opamp" rather than "opamp2".? The "opamp" model is unbounded (has no power supplies, so voltages can be infinite) and this can cause conversion convergence problems.
?
Andy
?


Re: Good settings for RIAA square wave

 

I never pretend or intend for someone else to do the hard work. That
is for me to try, because that way I learn.

What I did need help on that thread was with adding a HP filter for a
specific very low frequency rumble some Thorens TTs had. And I was
trying to use a two stage passive RIAA filter, as shown on Walt Jung's
book and later, and another passive/active design, also two stage,
inspired on a discrete RIAA preamp by Erno Borbely in The Audio
Amateru magazine. One pal on the thread, Marcel, helped me with that.
Designing a RIAA filter is much beyond my knowledge.

I'm not sure someone here would like to see the .asc sims, with and
without filters, as that's not a matter for this "problem solving"
site (to describe it somehow). If someone is interested, do let me
know. Going to that DIYaudio thread would be much better, and
suggestions from those that ask and respond to questions here would be
very useful there.

When I ask for help on something, everywhere, I do not expect others
to do the hard work. That is what I want to do.

Carlos

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 10:04?AM Andy I via groups.io
<AI.egrps+io@...> wrote:

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 08:23 AM, Carlos E. Mart¨ªnez wrote:

According to one of my colleagues at DIYaaudio, "Laplace is the most
accurate but can only be used in the .AC mode.
For the .Tran mode you will have to use the RC model.

That is not quite true.

The Laplace version has the disadvantage that the Laplace transform from frequency domain to time domain sometimes does not produce the right result - but sometimes it does, and the reasons why it works or does not work are not well understood. It seems to be a problem with fine-tuning the Laplace settings in the simulator. Those settings are WINDOW, NFFT, and MTOL. This is described (tersely) in LTspice's Help. As it states there:

The time domain behavior is found from the sum of the instantaneous current(or voltage) with the convolution of the history of this current(or voltage) with the impulse response. Numerical inversion of a Laplace transfer function to the time domain impulse response is a potentially compute-bound process and a topic of current numerical research. ... This process is prone to the usual artifacts of FFT's such as spectral leakage and picket fencing that is common to discrete FFT's. ... LTspice must guess an appropriate frequency range and resolution. It is recommended that the LTspice first be allowed to make a guess at this. The length of the window and number of FFT data points used will be reported in the .log file. You can then adjust the algorithm's choices by explicitly setting nfft and window length. The reciprocal of the value of the window is the frequency resolution. The value of nfft times this resolution is the highest frequency considered. ...

In other words, it might work, but you may need to manually adjust the settings to get a good transform to the time domain. It is incorrect that "you will have to use the RC model", but it is probably better and easier if you do. An RC model with correctly calculated components has exactly the same response as the Laplace form anyway.

Your colleagues at DIYaudio are incorrect when they say that "Laplace is the most accurate." It is not more accurate than the RC version. It is just easier to calculate since you know in advance where the poles and zeros should be.


I did try some of the SW settings that you suggested, and for now
found different responses according to the opamp being used. Now I
need someone to translate those results into actual distortions or
limits, and if possible play with the variables.

Can you do that yourself? Since this is your project, you ought to be able to examine your preamps' distortions and other effects. Or, you could pay someone to do it for you. :-) Wouldn't it be better to work on it yourself? Getting assistance is good, but don't expect someone else to do all the work.

Andy


Re: Good settings for RIAA square wave

 

On Sun, Mar 30, 2025 at 08:23 AM, Carlos E. Mart¨ªnez wrote:
According to one of my colleagues at DIYaaudio, "Laplace is the most
accurate but can only be used in the .AC mode.
For the .Tran mode you will have to use the RC model.
That is not quite true.
?
The Laplace version has the disadvantage that the Laplace transform from frequency domain to time domain sometimes does not produce the right result - but sometimes it does, and the reasons why it works or does not work are not well understood.? It seems to be a problem with fine-tuning the Laplace settings in the simulator.? Those settings are WINDOW, NFFT, and MTOL.? This is described (tersely) in LTspice's Help.? As it states there:

The time domain behavior is found from the sum of the instantaneous current(or voltage) with the convolution of the history of this current(or voltage) with the impulse response. Numerical inversion of a Laplace transfer function to the time domain impulse response is a potentially compute-bound process and a topic of current numerical research. ... This process is prone to the usual artifacts of FFT's such as spectral leakage and picket fencing that is common to discrete FFT's. ... LTspice must guess an appropriate frequency range and resolution. It is recommended that the LTspice first be allowed to make a guess at this. The length of the window and number of FFT data points used will be reported in the .log file. You can then adjust the algorithm's choices by explicitly setting nfft and window length. The reciprocal of the value of the window is the frequency resolution. The value of nfft times this resolution is the highest frequency considered. ...

In other words, it might work, but you may need to manually adjust the settings to get a good transform to the time domain.? It is incorrect that "you will have to use the RC model", but it is probably better and easier if you do.? An RC model with correctly calculated components has exactly the same response as the Laplace form anyway.
?
Your colleagues at DIYaudio are incorrect when they say that "Laplace is the most accurate."? It is not more accurate than the RC version.? ?It is just easier to calculate since you know in advance where the poles and zeros should be.
?
I did try some of the SW settings that you suggested, and for now
found different responses according to the opamp being used. Now I
need someone to translate those results into actual distortions or
limits, and if possible play with the variables.
Can you do that yourself?? Since this is your project, you ought to be able to examine your preamps' distortions and other effects.? Or, you could pay someone to do it for you.? :-)? Wouldn't it be better to work on it yourself?? Getting assistance is good, but don't expect someone else to do all the work.
?
Andy
?