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Re: usage of forum

 

--- In LTspice@..., "alexxx.datensalat" <alexxx.datensalat@...> wrote:

hi,

I am totally new to this forum and I didn't find a search function for
Posts or Files.

I want some assistence in creating a subcircuit on my own.
Precisely, I need ADG1219 an ADG636 in LTSPICE.
I tried to write a simple one, but it gives error message.

How can I append files to posts?

When I click on Mail button it wants me to sign in - but I am logged in already! Also it don't accept my password - saying ID don't exist.
Whats up?

Hello Alex,

Files shoud be uploaded to our Files section.

Files > Temp > yourfiles(.asc,.zip)




All uploaded fies are registered (linked) in the file
all_files.htm.

Files > Tables of Contents > all_files.htm




There is also a "search" field when you are in Messages.



Best regards,
Helmut


Re: LT1807

 

--- In LTspice@..., "glenn.fasnacht" <glenn.fasnacht@...> wrote:

I created an LTSPICE schematic of a gain +1 buffer of an LT1807 with a 100ohm load. The goal was to reproduce the Gain vs Frequency (Av=1) curve on the LT1807 datasheet on page 14. The curves are sort of similar but not as close as I would have expected; the datasheet shows a 6dB peak at about 70MHz that started to rise at about 20MHz. The simulation shows only a 2dB peak at 100MHz that starts to rise at about 8MHz. BTW, they don't show a schematic of the test configuration in the datasheet, but they do say 100 ohm load, so is my simulated circuit different from the actual test?

* C:&#92;Program Files (x86)&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;Draft2.asc
XU1 N003 N002 N001 N004 N002 LT1807
V1 N001 0 5V
V2 0 N004 5V
R1 N002 0 100
V3 N003 0 AC 0.1V
.ac oct 30 100k 500Meg
.lib LTC.lib
.backanno
.end

The question is, which do I trust, why the differences, and how should I deal with similar discrepancies in the future?
Hello Glenn,

Perhaps you should have started with the LT1807 jig supplied with the LTspice distribution, and simply modified that for a unity gain configuration. When I did that, the gain curve was very similar to the datasheet, with 6dB peaking at 67MHz.

Regards,
Tony


Re: usage of forum

 

--- In LTspice@..., "alexxx.datensalat" <alexxx.datensalat@...> wrote:

hi,

I am totally new to this forum and I didn't find a search function for
Posts or Files.

I want some assistence in creating a subcircuit on my own.
Precisely, I need ADG1219 an ADG636 in LTSPICE.
I tried to write a simple one, but it gives error message.

How can I append files to posts?

When I click on Mail button it wants me to sign in - but I am logged in already! Also it don't accept my password - saying ID don't exist.
Whats up?
You could try reading the homepage of the group's website. That will answer some of your questions.

Regards,
Tony


usage of forum

 

hi,

I am totally new to this forum and I didn't find a search function for
Posts or Files.

I want some assistence in creating a subcircuit on my own.
Precisely, I need ADG1219 an ADG636 in LTSPICE.
I tried to write a simple one, but it gives error message.

How can I append files to posts?

When I click on Mail button it wants me to sign in - but I am logged in already! Also it don't accept my password - saying ID don't exist.
Whats up?


Re: LT1807

 

--- In LTspice@..., "glenn.fasnacht" <glenn.fasnacht@...> wrote:

I created an LTSPICE schematic of a gain +1 buffer of an LT1807 with a 100ohm load. The goal was to reproduce the Gain vs Frequency (Av=1) curve on the LT1807 datasheet on page 14. The curves are sort of similar but not as close as I would have expected; the datasheet shows a 6dB peak at about 70MHz that started to rise at about 20MHz. The simulation shows only a 2dB peak at 100MHz that starts to rise at about 8MHz. BTW, they don't show a schematic of the test configuration in the datasheet, but they do say 100 ohm load, so is my simulated circuit different from the actual test?

* C:&#92;Program Files (x86)&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;Draft2.asc
XU1 N003 N002 N001 N004 N002 LT1807
V1 N001 0 5V
V2 0 N004 5V
R1 N002 0 100
V3 N003 0 AC 0.1V
.ac oct 30 100k 500Meg
.lib LTC.lib
.backanno
.end

The question is, which do I trust, why the differences, and how should I deal with similar discrepancies in the future?

Hello Glenn,

We don't like netlists. :-)
Please upload the schematic(.asc) file to our Files section.

Files > Temp > your_file.asc


Best regards,
Helmut


Re: AC Amplitude

 

--- In LTspice@..., "glenn.fasnacht" <glenn.fasnacht@...> wrote:

The Independent Voltage Source setup menu includes options for AC Amplitude and AC Phase. Since this is a Small signal AC analysis, what does entering values here do? I have changed the amplitude value but seen nothing other than the Y-axis of the plot change, the shape of the amplitude vs. frequency is not affected. Also, when I view the SPICE Netlist, there is nothing about amplitude in the .ac SPICE command.

All this being said, is there a convenient way to do a large signal amplitude vs. frequency sweep?

Hello Glenn,

The .AC simulation makes a linearized circuit before the response
will be calculated. It's mostly best to set AC 1, because then
you directly get the gain when you plot the output voltage.

Do you ask for sweep in time domain (.TRAN) to see effects like
slew rate limitations? Are you aware that slew rate limitations
already means distortion. Thus it's not good for low distortion
applications to use amplifiers in this limiting condition.

Best regards,
Helmut


LT1807

glenn.fasnacht
 

I created an LTSPICE schematic of a gain +1 buffer of an LT1807 with a 100ohm load. The goal was to reproduce the Gain vs Frequency (Av=1) curve on the LT1807 datasheet on page 14. The curves are sort of similar but not as close as I would have expected; the datasheet shows a 6dB peak at about 70MHz that started to rise at about 20MHz. The simulation shows only a 2dB peak at 100MHz that starts to rise at about 8MHz. BTW, they don't show a schematic of the test configuration in the datasheet, but they do say 100 ohm load, so is my simulated circuit different from the actual test?

* C:&#92;Program Files (x86)&#92;LTC&#92;LTspiceIV&#92;Draft2.asc
XU1 N003 N002 N001 N004 N002 LT1807
V1 N001 0 5V
V2 0 N004 5V
R1 N002 0 100
V3 N003 0 AC 0.1V
.ac oct 30 100k 500Meg
.lib LTC.lib
.backanno
.end

The question is, which do I trust, why the differences, and how should I deal with similar discrepancies in the future?


AC Amplitude

glenn.fasnacht
 

The Independent Voltage Source setup menu includes options for AC Amplitude and AC Phase. Since this is a Small signal AC analysis, what does entering values here do? I have changed the amplitude value but seen nothing other than the Y-axis of the plot change, the shape of the amplitude vs. frequency is not affected. Also, when I view the SPICE Netlist, there is nothing about amplitude in the .ac SPICE command.

All this being said, is there a convenient way to do a large signal amplitude vs. frequency sweep?


Re: PSpice section of the LTwiki's history of SPICE

 

--- In LTspice@..., Helmut Sennewald wrote:

This story is very interesting and new for me. I never read
these details in any publication. Great job to "interview"
these founders and also thanks to them sharing all these details.

Many (maybe most) board level designers using SPICE started
with PSPICE 25 years ago.
People's memories fade and none of us live forever. I think it
is important to record these stories accurately so that young
and future engineers can read about the history of SPICE. I plan
to preserve the technical history portions of the emails I got
from Mike Engelhardt, Larry Nagel and Paul Tuinenga on the LTwiki.
Maybe others will find them and copy them so that they don't
disappear if the LTwiki ever goes away.

By the way, SIMPLIS works extremely well (fast and noise free)
as a time domain frequency response analyzer (loop gain) for
switched circuits such as SMPSs and class-d amplifiers.

The node-limited free version of SIMPLIS seems to allow basic
topologies to be simulated (even when they include control ICs)
and feedback loop *exact* frequency response to be measured up
to and beyond the switching frequency. This is all done from
the time domain, switched network transient model - no separate
"equivalent" .ac model is required.

This is a very powerful feature. MicroCap, which is just normal
SPICE, has added some of this capability. I am sure that Mike
could add it all to LTspice if he were to so choose. It wouldn't
have to run as fast as SIMPLIS (which has its own shortcomings).
Maybe running one tenth as fast would be good enough. Then users
could run Bode plots of all of LTCs PWM controller IC designs!

A lot of simulators seem to be trending this way. I hope Mike
decides to add this to LTspice, too.


Re: PSpice section of the LTwiki's history of SPICE

 

Hello analogspiceman,

This story is very interesting and new for me. I never read
these details in any publication. Great job to "interview"
these founders and also thanks to them sharing all these details.

Many (maybe most) board level designers using SPICE started
with PSPICE 25 years ago.

Best regards,
Helmut

--- In LTspice@..., "analogspiceman" <analogspiceman@...> wrote:

--- In LTspice@..., analogspiceman wrote:

I am in the process of updating the depth and accuracy of the
historical SPICE page over at the LTwiki:

But what I am looking for right now is to complete the section
about PSpice. Specifically, I have no idea who were the people
initial responsible for creating PSpice. [...] Also, I could
not find any information as to when and at what revision Probe
became a part of PSpice. (Perhaps at the initial release?)

Then there is the meaning of name itself. I vaguely recall that
PSpice was at some point called uPspice (the 'u' being a micro
symbol), thus the acronym may have stood for micro-Processor SPICE
(others suggest it meant "Personal SPICE" or "Personal-computer
SPICE").
Okay, after a lead from Tony Casey and some further research, I
found Paul Tuinenga's current website (he was a founder of PSpice),
contacted him and got a very nice response (but he forgot to answer
all the questions!). Here is part of his response that he offer to
be shared:

"PSpice was launched in Jan 1984, with a short paragraph in
Electronics (McGraw Hill) magazine. I have a photocopy of that
announcement, but it's 700 miles away from me just now.

"'P' stands for Personal, as in Personal Computer (PC). MicroSim
(an invented name... having first checked the advertising list in
Byte magazine) stands for SIMulation on MICROprocessors. As it
turns out, the main product idea of the company was a mistake.
Between the summer of 1984 and the spring of 1985, we built an
accelerator based on multiple Intel 8086s (with 8087 floating-point
coprocessors), two complete computers per Multibus board, and systems
with up to 12 boards. The external box attached to an IBM-PC/AT and
provided over 2x the speed of a DEC VAX-11/780 minicomputer (which
many companies were using 24x7 to run UCB SPICE). It was called
PSpice Turbine. We sold one a week after debuting it at an EDN
industrial conference. Then the industry went into a capital-
spending slump and we didn't sell another for the rest of that year.
In the meantime, PSpice the "shrink wrap" software, the sales of
which were to "keep us in baloney sandwiches" until the real product,
the Turbine hardware accelerator, took off. It never did, but every
month the sales of PSpice grew. So we shelved the hardware
development to re-focus on the software e.g. re-writing it from
Fortran into C (then C++ much later)."
_______________________________________________________________

After thanking him for his gracious response, I posed a few more
questions: "When did you first begin working on what was to become
MicroSim/PSpice (and when was MicroSim first officially launched -
1983)? Also, were you the sole (major) founder or did you have
other equal partners?" (Forgot to ask again when Probe became
part of PSpice.)

Anyway, I've updated the LTwiki to include the new information.

!!!Hold on, on just now received an email from Paul Tuinenga.
Here is some of the part okay to be shared:

"The creator of PSpice is Wolfram Blume (BS75 Caltech). He sat in
the office next to mine at Silicon Systems, Inc. (SSi), In 1983,
SSi bought several IBM-PC/XTs. Blume was the in-house maintainer
of UCB SPICE on the Prime minicomputers used for IC design and
layout at that time. SSi developed most of the tools it needed
(and we all take for granted today) because none existed at the
time. For example, SSi was the first to make color plots of IC
layouts, and using stipple patterns for the layers (these overlap
in a visually pleasing way). We also created a layout-versus-
schematic (LVS) that predates by several years anything from the
ECAD vendors.

"Knowing the innards of SPICE, and where the time was spent for
transient simulations, Blume got the idea to see how fast the
IBM-PC was. He tested the speed of MOS level -2 code using the
Microsoft Fortran compiler. As is turns out, that test gave an
optimistic result for Intel processors to accelerate simulations
and thus propelled the idea of MicroSim.

"The problem with SPICE being shoehorned into the PC (640KB max
memory) is SPICE2 was five(?) overlays and no IBM-PC Fortran
compiler had overlay capability. Blume figured out how to replace
those as two programs run in sequence, with the first doing read-
in and checking, then leaving a data structure in memory for the
analyses to operate on in the second program. This is why MicroSim
PSpice had no competition for about two years, until later IBM-PC
Fortran compilers handled overlaying.

"SSi was officially upset with Wolfram and "Blume Engineering"
selling PSpice for $495, and demanded royalties. Blume quit SSi.
Shortly after, he and I met to discuss his situation. He described
this idea for building a hardware accelerator. He's not a hardware
guy, but I am and I knew exactly how to build it. So I quit SSi,
too, and we formed MicroSim in June 1984. Blume was the major
partner."

"Later, when the Turbine fizzled, I turned to software and rewrote
all the device equations into C. Then I created the Parts option
and built up the several thousand standard components library.
Also, I wrote "the book" which eventually went to three editions
(additional material in each), was translated to Japanese and
French, and sold well over 100,000 copies. That last sounds small,
but for technical books, which normally sell in the mid 4-figure
volume range, I am Steven King. OK, I wrote a pretty good book,
but Prentice Hall gets all the credit for pushing it far and wide.
Dr. Richard Newton told me he saw a copy in a Moscow university
office (long before the Soviet empire fell)."
_______________________________________________________________

Below are first the LTwiki SPICE history page introduction, then
the section just about MicroSim PSpice (now needing revision:
_______________________________________________________________

LTspice excels, not only in its technical prowess, but also in its
unique accessibility to and popularity with the masses. This page
highlights the heritage of LTspice, emphasizing both the technical
developments leading up to the current version of LTspice and the
key events and prior trailblazers on the pathway to making SPICE
the dominant simulation platform in the engineering community.

If as its primary original author, Larry Nagel is deservedly
considered "The Father of SPICE" then as its essential enabler,
advocate and general all-round visionary for open source electronic
simulation software, Don Pederson most certainly is SPICE's god-
father. And its two most noteworthy disciples and popularizers
would have to be Paul Tuinenga and Mike Engelhardt. These are men
who clearly could see the power and potential of SPICE, had the
ability to hone it into practical tools and, most importantly had
the genius to make SPICE a comfortable fixture on the majority of
engineering desktops.
_______________________________________________________________

1984: PSpice (Personal-Computer SPICE)

Caltech graduate, Paul Tuinenga (MS78), co-founds MicroSim as V.P. of Technology circa 1983

Developed to run on the first IBM PC, PSpice is initially released in January 1984

Was the first commercial offspring of Berkeley SPICE to run directly on the PC platform

Last FORTRAN version was 2.06 ¨C version 3.00 (Dec 86) was rewritten totally in C, yielding a 20% speed increase

Feedback from a very large customer base led to rapid convergence, speed and feature enhancements

Was the first SPICE program to gain wide acceptance in both industry and academia
- Paul Tuinega's tutorial, SPICE: A Guide to Circuit Simulation and Analysis Using PSpice, (now in its 3rd edition) becomes the "New Testament" of SPICE

KEY EVENT: A zero cost (but node-limited) student version was introduced in 1988
- For the first time, SPICE became truly ubiquitous in the electrical engineering academic and industrial communities

Evolved from Berkeley SPICE 2G, but added many proprietary enhancements
- Dec 86: nonlinear Jiles/Atherton core model, Apr 87: ideal switches, Date?: proprietary IGBT model (and many other enhancements)
- Probe, a waveform viewer module, was added when PC VGA graphics became available
- Schematics, a graphical front end, was added much later with version 5.00 in July 1991

In January 1998 MicroSim was acquired by OrCAD, which itself was subsequently purchased by Cadence Design Systems in July 1999


Re: Using step command

 

Thanks a lot.

Le 05/08/2013 10:28, Helmut a ¨¦crit :

Hello Jerry,

You left an overdue SPICE-line "wiper={p2}".
I replaced it with .param p2=0.5 just for the case when you
don't want simulate any .step. Now everything is OK.

Files > Temp > Step gain control_p2.zip

Simply unzip this file into a folder and RUN the simulation.

Best regards,
Helmut



Re: Using step command

 

Hello Jerry,

You left an overdue SPICE-line "wiper={p2}".
I replaced it with .param p2=0.5 just for the case when you
don't want simulate any .step. Now everything is OK.

Files > Temp > Step gain control_p2.zip

Simply unzip this file into a folder and RUN the simulation.

Best regards,
Helmut


Re: Using step command

 

Le 05/08/2013 08:46, John Woodgate a ¨¦crit :

In message <51FF3E4D.2000109@...
<mailto:51FF3E4D.2000109%40sfr.fr>>, dated Mon, 5 Aug 2013, Jerry Lee
Marcel <jerryleemarcel@... <mailto:jerryleemarcel%40sfr.fr>> writes:

Pardon me for the noob question, but why p2? (I've tried with p1,
doesn't work either)
It is just an arbitrary variable label in your schematic:

wiper = {p2} .step param p2 0 1 0.1

If you change BOTH instances of p2 to anything else, it will still work.
Thanks, that's what I more or less figured out. One less mystery,
leaving only the error message...

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Using step command

John Woodgate
 

In message <51FF3E4D.2000109@...>, dated Mon, 5 Aug 2013, Jerry Lee Marcel <jerryleemarcel@...> writes:

Pardon me for the noob question, but why p2? (I've tried with p1, doesn't work either)
It is just an arbitrary variable label in your schematic:

wiper = {p2} .step param p2 0 1 0.1

If you change BOTH instances of p2 to anything else, it will still work.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK


Re: LTC3765 & 66 dc/dc circuit

 

Hello Helmut,

Indeed, I'll try FAE - thanks for an obvious solution.

Regards,
Olek A

--- In LTspice@..., "Helmut" <helmutsennewald@...> wrote:

Hello Olek,

I remember that I tried and the simulation took too long for
my free time. Please be aware that practically no user of this
group is an employee of LTC.
Why not asking your nearly located FAE (Filed Application Engineer)
from LTC? They may be able to help.

Best regards,
Helmut

PS: I am also not an employee of LTC.


--- In LTspice@..., "oleka111" <oleka111@> wrote:

Really nobody is able to help me ?
I need a solution to get an isolated dc/dc converter with Vin = +8...30V and Vout = +3.2...4.3V at Iout=20 A.
The LTC3765 & 66 chips seems to be a nice solution, but at lower Vin this combo doesn't simulate peoperly/


Thanks in advance, OlekA

--- In LTspice@..., "oleka111" <oleka111@> wrote:

Hello!

I tried to simulate a +9...+30 Vin, +3.5...+4.2 Vout dc/dc converter using LTC3765 & 66 chips.
While it simulates nice using default LT settings as in jigs directory,
any attempt to use lower input voltage in the area +9..12 Vin failed due to abnormal Ndrv pin behaviour.
After several milliseconds of proper work it simply stops feeding Vcc pin through mosfet.

Why it makes this "brownout" ?


Re: Shot Noise Contributions From DC Currents

 

Hi Darren.
I suggest a better way of imitation shot noise. Look in the TEMP folder. File DiodeNoiseCircuit+BjtNoise.zip .

Bordodynov.

04.08.2013, 20:10, "odarren" <odarren@...>:

Hi All,

Using the examples Helmut directed me to, I put together a circuit, DiodeNoiseCircuit.asc, available in the temp directory. I'm very confused about the need for the capacitor in parallel with the diode. At frequencies where all the current effectively goes through the capacitor and the diode current is effectively zero, the shot noise is correct: sqrt(2*I1*1.602e-19). When the current is all flowing through the diode, which is when I would expect the shot noise to be as calculated, there is no shot noise. Can anyone enlighten me as to why this is the case?

Thanks in advance,
Darren

--- In LTspice@..., "odarren" <odarren@...> wrote:

Hello All,

I have a simple amplifier model using a voltage controlled voltage source with a parallel combination of R and C in the feedback. The noise analysis in LTSpice gives me the expected voltage noise spectral density due to the Johnson noise of the resistance. But I'm trying to add a DC bias current and see the shot noise that results, and it's not working. For example, if I put a 1 Amp DC bias at the negative node of the VCVS, I don't see the output noise change. I also tried using a behavioral model of the current using the white function, and that doesn't produce any noise at the output either.

Does anyone know how to simulate shot noise such as I'm trying to do?

Thanks in advance,
Darren O'Connor


Re: Using step command

 

I've uploaded the new version with the correct syntax and the standard
potentiometer model (same name: Step gain control).
Now I have an error message: "wiper: missing node"

Pardon me for the noob question, but why p2? (I've tried with p1,
doesn't work either).



Le 05/08/2013 07:35, Jerry Lee Marcel a ¨¦crit :


Le 04/08/2013 23:24, John Woodgate a ¨¦crit :

In message <ktmej9+q42f@...
<mailto:ktmej9%2Bq42f%40eGroups.com>
<mailto:ktmej9%2Bq42f%40eGroups.com>>, dated Sun, 4 Aug 2013, jerrylee.
marcel <jerryleemarcel@... <mailto:jerryleemarcel%40sfr.fr>
<mailto:jerryleemarcel%40sfr.fr>> writes:

I've posted a .asc in Files-> Temp names Step gain control. I expected
it to display a family of 21 graphs but it just shows the default graph
corresponding to the default value of the potentiometer. What did I do
wrong?
You need to set wiper={p2}, not the fixed value of 0.5, and change w in
".step param w 0 1 0.1" to p2 (no curly brackets).
Thanks, will try that. I knew my syntax was at fault.


Why do you expect 21 graphs, with only eleven steps? Is it a stereo pot?
(;-)
Sorry, typo, 11 graphs.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Using step command

 

Le 04/08/2013 23:54, John Woodgate a ¨¦crit :

In message <ktmh7l+s58q@...
<mailto:ktmh7l%2Bs58q%40eGroups.com>>, dated Sun, 4 Aug 2013, Helmut
<helmutsennewald@... <mailto:helmutsennewald%40yahoo.com>> writes:

Please also upload your symbol potentiometer1.asy and your model
potentiometer.sub.
I used the normal one we have as an LTspice extra.
That's the one I use generally.

I realise that the OP
altered some things, not for the best!
In fact this altered model comes from one of the examples in the files.
I tried with both the standard and altered model, none of them worked.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK


Re: Using step command

 

Le 04/08/2013 23:24, John Woodgate a ¨¦crit :

In message <ktmej9+q42f@...
<mailto:ktmej9%2Bq42f%40eGroups.com>>, dated Sun, 4 Aug 2013, jerrylee.
marcel <jerryleemarcel@... <mailto:jerryleemarcel%40sfr.fr>> writes:

I've posted a .asc in Files-> Temp names Step gain control. I expected
it to display a family of 21 graphs but it just shows the default graph
corresponding to the default value of the potentiometer. What did I do
wrong?
You need to set wiper={p2}, not the fixed value of 0.5, and change w in
".step param w 0 1 0.1" to p2 (no curly brackets).
Thanks, will try that. I knew my syntax was at fault.


Why do you expect 21 graphs, with only eleven steps? Is it a stereo pot?
(;-)
Sorry, typo, 11 graphs.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK


Re: Using step command

John Woodgate
 

In message <ktmh7l+s58q@...>, dated Sun, 4 Aug 2013, Helmut <helmutsennewald@...> writes:

Please also upload your symbol potentiometer1.asy and your model potentiometer.sub.
I used the normal one we have as an LTspice extra. I realise that the OP altered some things, not for the best!
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Why is the stapler always empty just when you want it?

John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK