|
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@... To: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
Hi Dan
Thanks.This is the view of my father's generation who remember the old times, the communist times and experienced the years with the new political parties after Solidarnosc. According to my dad,? for the first time since the postwar years Polish government ? is protecting Poland's interests instead of being influenced by the outside opinions.
Best regards Izabela
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 25 May 2016, at 12:15, "Dan Zamoyski zamoyski@... [Kresy-Siberia]" < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
On Wed, May 25, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Izabela Spero izabela_spero@... [Kresy-Siberia] <Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Hi Dan
Thanks.This is the view of my father's generation who remember the old times, the communist times and experienced the years with the new political parties after Solidarnosc. According to my dad,? for the first time since the postwar years Polish government ? is protecting Poland's interests instead of being influenced by the outside opinions.
Best regards Izabela
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world.? This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
Dear Jan Gus and others
The political claim that the PO government took the same approach to Polish history as the Communist PRL government remains unsubstantiated. However, this is simply not the place to discuss the politics of Poland.
As for the Kresy-Siberia Foundation, it is apolitical and must remain so. Though it rightly shows appreciation to its financial donor, it does not promote their political agendas, whether they are PO, PIS or other. However, it can be surprised that its backers are accused of whitewashing or denying the history of communist wrongdoings. This seems like a weird idea given the backing we have received for our mission.
Best regards? ______________________________________________________________________________ Stefan Wi?niowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum
- NOT
From: "Jan Gan janus375@... [Kresy-Siberia]"
< Kresy-Siberia@...>
Date: Thu, May 26, 2016 6:46 am
To: Kresy-Siberia@...
? Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
|
Jan Gan
Any claim is unsubstantiated until evidence is provided. Please provide evidence for the professor's claim if you agree with ?it, as he has not.? Regards
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 26 May 2016, at 20:46, Jan Gan janus375@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
|
Dan Zamoyski What is an "EU"-political view of WW2 and what is wrong with it? ?Last I heard, EU officially condemned Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as the aggressors ("Black Ribbon" Day). What have you heard?
Regards Stefan Wisniowski? Sydney
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 25 May 2016, at 21:09, Dan Zamoyski zamoyski@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
The evidence from my last post about Gdańsk Museum should be sufficient from just minutes ago. I will not quote it again here. If you need a few more examples I will find them, as I know them well. By the way, can we afford switching to the bulletin board? Nowadays it is called forum. Then we will have subjects separated and following question - answer format.?
?
Jan Gan
Any claim is unsubstantiated until evidence is provided. Please provide evidence for the professor's claim if you agree with ?it, as he has not.? Regards
?
Here is my answer to Stefan Wisniowski Kresy-Siberia Foundation President
If we are not going to discuss political issues here, we should not discuss them here. Your answer which condemns the statement which I quote: "NB the unsubstantiated statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that "...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually transgresses our group value" - is just political discussion.? How do you know, that it is unsubstantiated? You should not react to the opinion of Prof. Lukaszewski. It is his opinion, he has the right to express it, especially that it is related to the polish history and the Tusk government did a lot to deserve such opinion. To avoid political discussion, we should not to discuss opinion, but the subject matter. As you said what you said, it raises the question why did you do that? Does not the grant from that government makes you feel obliged to stand in his defense? That is the most probable, as you indicate, that "our main grant applications have been rejected." by present government. Maybe they know more about our organisation than meets the eye or just do not have money right know, I do not know.
I will quote here what I answered to someone else in historical matter. It happens that my answer substantiates the opinion of Prof. WJ Lukaszewski.
With regards? Jan Gan?
Quote: "Polish military effort on the West is well documented, known to the public and we are proud of all of its members.
History is ?a very political issue. We have to distinguish here 3 areas.? 1.? Personal experience and knowledge of a person about historical facts. 2.? Experience, knowledge and ideology of different groups within a nation. 3.? Historical policy of a country, which depends on who is ruling that country.
In this discussion, there was a problem rised by a member of a group, that in the history of Poland, they are forgotten. This group in general may be described as Poles who were members of Polish Arm Forces in the West, who settled there after the war. As a 72 years old, raised and educated in Poland I have pretty good knowledge about your history. I have finished my education in the mid sixties. Era of Wieslaw Gomulka, who thrown the slogan "Poland - country of the learning people" and? "A 1000 schools on polish millenium." They were built. We still had around teachers from before the war. We were taught thinking and making own conclusions.15 years later there was a different story. Policy changed into "pinguin education". All the same, a lot of material facts, no independent thinking, everything based on Marx materialism. Since 1945 historical policy of Poland supported interest of Russia, German Democratic Republic, Ukrainian and comunism in general. Therefore we did not know much about Katyń, and nothing about genocide of Poles in Soviet Union in 1937-1939 (200 000 victims), Wolyn massacre (120 000 victims). It did not change much after 1989, when Poland became "independent". Under Tusk government (2007-2015) education was diminished, limited the number of hours of history classes in high schools. There we sharp clashes on that issue of different groups, opposition, teachers, students, unions. There were no official protests against falsifying polish history by Jews and Germans. To the contrary. The authors received polish medals, honoris causa titles, took part in meetings and made lectures. Now this will be reversed.?
For many years in Poland grows grass root interest in true Poland's history. There are independent publishers, internet sites, video lectures, especially in , discussions in this subject. There are a lot of young people who take part in it. Historical reconstruction became very popular - the newest way of presenting historical events to the public. Attractive and engaging, especially to the performers. . The hottest isue is the history of underground soldiers fighting against communism in 1945-1963 ? In the funeral of the most fameous mjr Zygmunt Lupaszka on the 24 of April 2016 took part the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda and none of the polish generals. This shows how much we are divided on historical issues. Your personal impression will depend on who you are talking to, descendants of communists or descendants of AK members.
You and I may rest assured, that polish history will not be forgotten, will not remain distorted and falsified. Finally we have enough tools and will to fight for it. This fight has just began. There are plenty of Poles who co-operate with our adversaries, for profits or ideological motivation.
?genocide 1937-39 in Soviet Union
|
Stefan Wisniowski
As I wrote below, I did not intend to make any further comment in this thread, but since you have forced me to do so by asking these questions, I will respond here.
My reference to an "EU" view of WW2 was purely in direct juxtaposition to Timothy Snyder's quotation, which I repeat here: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "?
So, an "EU" view of WW2 is a "non-nationalistic" view, pure and simple. Whatever is a "nationalist" viewpoint for the design and implementation of a WW2 museum is for Snyder to more fully explain. As he is an eminent historian, I bow to his superior knowledge and experience. And if a "nationalist" museum was good enough for Germany, France USA, etc, then it is certainly good enough for Poland - and for me. That is all that I was trying to say.
Hopefully Helpful Suggestion: I am a Moderator on the Polish Media Issues Debating Arm Facebook page (and on the main PMI page, which normally has a very restricted post criteria, as they must all be "action-able" posts). Occasionally we find on the PMI-DA that we have to not allow a post to appear because we have found that certain (very small in number) topics are almost guaranteed to raise controversy which creates much more heat than light. As the Gdansk Museum is already known to be a controversial issue, I am hoping that the, to all appearances, "innocent" question about "what's going on there" in Gdansk was indeed purely innocent, especially as that same person went on to tell a very anti-Polish joke in a later post.
Regards, Dan Zamoyski
To: Kresy-Siberia@... From: Kresy-Siberia@... Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2016 03:51:56 +1000 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS "takeover" of Gdansk war museum - NOT
?
Dan Zamoyski What is an "EU"-political view of WW2 and what is wrong with it? ?Last I heard, EU officially condemned Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as the aggressors ("Black Ribbon" Day). What have you heard?
Regards Stefan Wisniowski? Sydney
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 25 May 2016, at 21:09, Dan Zamoyski zamoyski@... [Kresy-Siberia] < Kresy-Siberia@...> wrote:
?
I also do not intend to get involved in this debate further than my comment here, which I trust might be illuminating for the person initially posing this question.?
From what I can tell, this is a battle about control over the content of the new museum, not whether it will open or not. Timothy Snyder and Norman Davies are certainly appearing to be anti-PiS party (so, it is them being political, not me), and are prematurely (over-) reacting to what they think might happen, when the actual changes in content have not yet been announced. So, their protestations do not appear to be based on fact, just innuendo, and are yet another attempt to seek to discredit the current Polish government.
However, one key Fact is revealed by a statement by Snyder in his attack on the current government's actions regarding the proposed combining of the two museums: "Snyder, a signatory of that statement and author of “Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin,” said the world has other World War II museums but they all take an exclusively national view. "? ? So, WHY, I ask Mr Snyder, should POLAND's WW2 museum be the first one to NOT take a nationalistic view ?! If a nationalist view was good enough for Germany, France, Britain, the USA etc, then Why Not for Poland?? All the other countries that interacted with Poland during WW2 (for better or worse!) would obviously be included in all the historical information, for reasons of context and timeline.
From what I have read, the initial concept of this new museum was to take a "unique" multi-faceted, global view of WW2, but it was also, from what I have read, designed to take an "EU"-political view of WW2. So, before anyone starts casting stones at Poland's current government for not being as EU-loving as the previous government, please take a look at all the many other EU member states (Germany, France, UK, Austria, etc) and see how many others are not as EU-loving as they used to be. Poland was just ahead of the curve?on many EU-related matters - and the rest of Europe is just catching up now.
My personal view is that Poland, like all the other major European countries who have a WW2 museum based on their own perspective, deserves to have a modern museum based on its own POLISH perspective. I also am very confident that they will have significant content coverage of the Kresy history, as these areas were part of Poland on 1 September 1939.?
More than any other Polish government since 1989, as the one that finally was democratically elected as a single-majority-party government, I trust the current Polish government to deliver this Polish perspective - no matter how many foreign-born historians get their nose out of joint about it.?
Dan Zamoyski Bakewell, Derbyshire, England
From: Kresy-Siberia@...To: Kresy-Siberia@...Date: Tue, 24 May 2016 20:45:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [Kresy-Siberia (Yahoo)] PiS takeover of Gdansk war museum
?
I don’t intend to get into this debate; the question had been asked, I answered it. Each of us is capable of looking back into recent history and find out the extent to which my answer is correct or not.? PS. Grant policies have nothing to with the intent of the question.
Of course, Polish history must be made better known around the world - this is part of our mission as the Kresy-Siberia Foundation. However, the Gdansk WW2 Museum issue is a little more complex than some would have you believe. ?
The WW2 Museum's strategy was to put Polish WW2 experiences into the context of a comprehensive museum of World War 2, the only such one in the world. ?This was actually a clever way to sell the Polish story,?by attracting worldwide interest in this unique museum first, then telling the Polish story once there...
This is why the Museum's advisors included non-Polish historians people like Tim Snyder and Norman Davies – two of those who are now decrying the recent actions to make the museum focus only on the Polish aspects of the war.
NB the?unsubstantiated?statement by Professor WJ Lukaszewski that?"...people who controlled Polish government until last October tried to suppress popularizing the nation’s history as strenuously as did the occupiers in the past" actually?transgresses our group values of avoiding to comment on current politics in the group. However, now that this claim was made, it would be unjust to ignore the fact that over the years 2008-2014 (when the Professor was a member of the Kresy-Siberia Foundation's Executive Committee), the Polish government granted about 1 million zloty's (US$250,000) towards the development of the online Kresy-Siberia Virtual Museum and the recording and presentation of ?its Survivor Testimony interviews and historical exhibitions. This is hardly the action of people trying to suppress popularizing the nation's history!
How much financial support the new government provides remain to be seen, but so far our main grant applications have been rejected.
Regards,
Stefan Wisniowski
Kresy-Siberia Foundation President ?
|
I do not believe that it is possible to discuss history in a vacuum.? While I agree that discussing current events can be a slippery slope, events that affect the re-telling of history is an important and even necessary debate we must have.? Political control of the content of museums, written history and all other forms of memorializing the war or any other event is a trait we universally criticize in totalitarian regimes.? Why then should we be shy of discussing similar (even mild) such attempts in Poland or any country?
Stefan is right in that politics and history do not mix.? This does not mean that we should be silent when the telling of history is overtaken by politics.? We should, as a matter of policy, resist the intrusion of politics influence on that telling.? This is vastly different from a normal political discussion.? To believe that KS or Poland are somehow immune from the same ills is be naive and we dishonor the lives of our ancestors by pretending that we are.
I refer you again to Orwell, this time to his satire "Animal Farm" Chapter VI.
"Muriel," she said, "read me the Fourth Commandment. Does it not say
something about never sleeping in a bed?"
With some difficulty Muriel spelt it out.
"It says, 'No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets,"' she announced
finally.
Curiously enough, Clover had not remembered that the Fourth Commandment
mentioned sheets; but as it was there on the wall, it must have done so.
And Squealer, who happened to be passing at this moment, attended by two
or three dogs, was able to put the whole matter in its proper perspective.
"You have heard then, comrades," he said, "that we pigs now sleep in the
beds of the farmhouse? And why not? You did not suppose, surely, that
there was ever a ruling against beds? A bed merely means a place to sleep
in. A pile of straw in a stall is a bed, properly regarded. The rule was
against sheets, which are a human invention. We have removed the sheets
from the farmhouse beds, and sleep between blankets. And very comfortable
beds they are too! But not more comfortable than we need, I can tell you,
comrades, with all the brainwork we have to do nowadays. You would not rob
us of our repose, would you, comrades? You would not have us too tired to
carry out our duties? Surely none of you wishes to see Jones back?"
The animals reassured him on this point immediately, and no more was said
about the pigs sleeping in the farmhouse beds. And when, some days
afterwards, it was announced that from now on the pigs would get up an
hour later in the mornings than the other animals, no complaint was made
about that either.
Bernie
|
