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just wondering: were any Halli receivers shipped with polarized 2 or 3 prong AC plugs, and if so which models or when.
is/was there any? evidence? not speculation?
It is hard to answer for sure now, since most cords have been changed a some time for one reason or the other.
73? don VA3DRL
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To my best recollection, and what's on hand, I have never seen one up to and including SX-115, HT-32B, and various power supplies for later tranceivers. I've always had to add them. ? K3HVG
On 01/09/2023 6:03 PM don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
just wondering: were any Halli receivers shipped with polarized 2 or 3 prong AC plugs, and if so which models or when.
is/was there any? evidence? not speculation?
It is hard to answer for sure now, since most cords have been changed a some time for one reason or the other.
73? don VA3DRL
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?
In a message dated 1/9/2023 6:03:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, drootofallevil@... writes:
?
just wondering: were any Halli receivers shipped with polarized 2 or 3 prong AC plugs, and if so which models or when.
is/was there any? evidence? not speculation?
It is hard to answer for sure now, since most cords have been changed a some time for one reason or the other.
73? don VA3DRL
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I checked? my Hallicrafers receiver collection and they all have their original, non-polarized plugs. These include the following models:
?
SX-100
SX-110
SX-117
SX-122A
?
Bob K3AC
In a message dated 1/9/2023 10:31:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, k3ac@... writes:
?
In a message dated 1/9/2023 6:03:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, drootofallevil@... writes:
?
just wondering: were any Halli receivers shipped with polarized 2 or 3 prong AC plugs, and if so which models or when.
is/was there any? evidence? not speculation?
It is hard to answer for sure now, since most cords have been changed a some time for one reason or the other.
73? don VA3DRL
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Makes me wonder what the internal electrical situation was when you plugged it in one way, versus the other.
Craig, VE3OP
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 03:21 AM, Craig Delmage wrote:
Makes me wonder what the internal electrical situation was when you plugged it in one way, versus the other.
===END QUOTE,? BEGIN COMMENT==== as I tried to finish this comment, I am reminded that what triggered this question and this specific comment? was the S-40? topic so this is specifically for the S-40 model and many others ? these comments are addressed to those who are not too familiar with electronic circuits and may have similar questions ....? If that "cap wired from the plug to the chassis" did not exist, there would in theory be no difference if the AC plug is reversed other than for the transformer primary and the power switch and so only a very small concern, But given that the cap exist:
- [call it normal desired] the incoming AC hot wire gets connected to the switch while the neutral? wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to neutral/real ground?? .. and the condition of the cap hardly matters, so only little concern.
- [call it reversed] the incoming AC neutral wire gets connected to the switch and the hot wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to 117 VAC? [the? chassis is going to tend to float] ??
- under new-capacitor conditions, the current thru the cap will not be much, and will easily be swamped by the ground wire? on the antenna TB? if it is connected but otherwise could give you a tingle if your feet are "grounded"
- ... but if that cap leaks/shorts the cap will strongly tend? to take the chassis to 117 VAC ... it will be a fight between the 117AC and any antenna TB ground[possible smoke etc], but if the chassis is not grounded? and you touch the cabinet/chassis? it all depends on how isolated you are from ground at that time, and how dry your skin is too.
BTW: this is why I like to see the neutral always connected to that capacitor and the hot to that switch, so always plug it in that way, or just make the plug polarized to prevent this problematic situation, but then as i must have babbled elsewhere; why is the cap there? a real question; not yet rhetoric. 73 don? VA3DRL
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On 01/10/2023 3:49 PM don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 03:21 AM, Craig Delmage wrote:
Makes me wonder what the internal electrical situation was when you plugged it in one way, versus the other.
===END QUOTE,? BEGIN COMMENT====
as I tried to finish this comment, I am reminded that what triggered this question and this specific comment? was the S-40? topic so this is specifically for the S-40 model and many others ?
these comments are addressed to those who are not too familiar with electronic circuits and may have similar questions ....?
If that "cap wired from the plug to the chassis" did not exist, there would in theory be no difference if the AC plug is reversed other than for the transformer primary and the power switch and so only a very small concern,
But given that the cap exist:
- [call it normal desired] the incoming AC hot wire gets connected to the switch while the neutral? wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to neutral/real ground?? .. and the condition of the cap hardly matters, so only little concern.
- [call it reversed] the incoming AC neutral wire gets connected to the switch and the hot wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to 117 VAC? [the? chassis is going to tend to float] ??
- under new-capacitor conditions, the current thru the cap will not be much, and will easily be swamped by the ground wire? on the antenna TB? if it is connected but otherwise could give you a tingle if your feet are "grounded"
- ... but if that cap leaks/shorts the cap will strongly tend? to take the chassis to 117 VAC ... it will be a fight between the 117AC and any antenna TB ground[possible smoke etc], but if the chassis is not grounded? and you touch the cabinet/chassis? it all depends on how isolated you are from ground at that time, and how dry your skin is too.
BTW: this is why I like to see the neutral always connected to that capacitor and the hot to that switch, so always plug it in that way, or just make the plug polarized to prevent this problematic situation, but then as i must have babbled elsewhere; why is the cap there? a real question; not yet rhetoric.
73 don? VA3DRL
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Sometime around 1972-1973 before 3 prong outlets were required by the NEC. Working on old houses with 2 prong outlet never recall seeing a polarized outlet. David
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 01:27 PM, dcc98_05 wrote:
Sometime around 1972-1973 before 3 prong outlets were required by the NEC. Working on old houses with 2 prong outlet never recall seeing a polarized outlet.
David I am up north of 49 where things are similar, but not the exact same. I believe we had, and required 3 prong polarized outlets before 1955, but only for Outside, Garages, Laundry.... so the outlets with polarization were available here, but most of the wiring and outlets were 2 wire. I recall that we went from 2-wire non-polarized to 3-wire inherently polarized; in the 60's, we had to have lots of "cheaters"! ? ?? I don't recall any a 2-wire polarized outlets, for some time; just 3 wire. All extensions were either 3 wire, or 2wire, non-polarized; only later did we see 2-wire polarized. At any time, Our "National"electrical code perhaps did not require only 3-wire, but whoever was in charge of local approval might have been under tighter control ,but likely universal requirements dragged on in a similar way as yours. Also, here the CSA set the rules for appliances, cords, house wire etc so, the two bodies had to be in-step. ? 73 don? VA3DRL
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I am old enough to remember. Few? homes had polarized sockets when these receivers were new.? The 0.01 uF capacitor was to bypass RF on the incoming power. Goes from the unswitched side of the line to chassis ground.? The power cord goes to the power transformer primary so, except for the cap it's floating, polarity doesn't matter.? If the cap will always pass some AC but at 60Hz it's very little? unless it's very leaky.? On some receivers with metal cabinets you can feel a slight buzz when you run your fingers over it. This is from the small amount af AC causing the skin to vibrate.?? Removing the bypass cap will usually stop it but insulation leakage in the power transformer can also cause it. ? AC/DC receivers will not work at all on DC if the line cord is reversed.? Some will suggest reversing the plug if there is excessive hum on AC. Worth trying both ways. ? Three-wire cords won't prevent shocks,? ?depends on the house wiring plus what exactly is "ground"?
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-------- Original message -------- From: "D. Platt" <jeepp@...> Date: 1/10/23 1:08 PM (GMT-08:00) Subject: Re: [HallicraftersRadios] general question re polarized ac plugs on receivers as shipped originally
Hear!? Hear!
K3HVG
On 01/10/2023 3:49 PM don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 03:21 AM, Craig Delmage wrote:
Makes me wonder what the internal electrical situation was when you plugged it in one way, versus the other.
===END QUOTE,? BEGIN COMMENT====
as I tried to finish this comment, I am reminded that what triggered this question and this specific comment? was the S-40? topic so this is specifically for the S-40 model and many others ?
these comments are addressed to those who are not too familiar with electronic circuits and may have similar questions ....?
If that "cap wired from the plug to the chassis" did not exist, there would in theory be no difference if the AC plug is reversed other than for the transformer primary and the power switch and so only a very small concern,
But given that the cap exist:
- [call it normal desired] the incoming AC hot wire gets connected to the switch while the neutral? wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to neutral/real ground?? .. and the condition of the cap hardly matters, so only little concern.
- [call it reversed] the incoming AC neutral wire gets connected to the switch and the hot wire gets connected to the cap which tends to take the chassis to 117 VAC? [the? chassis is going to tend to float] ??
- under new-capacitor conditions, the current thru the cap will not be much, and will easily be swamped by the ground wire? on the antenna TB? if it is connected but otherwise could give you a tingle if your feet are "grounded"
- ... but if that cap leaks/shorts the cap will strongly tend? to take the chassis to 117 VAC ... it will be a fight between the 117AC and any antenna TB ground[possible smoke etc], but if the chassis is not grounded? and you touch the cabinet/chassis? it all depends on how isolated you are from ground at that time, and how dry your skin is too.
BTW: this is why I like to see the neutral always connected to that capacitor and the hot to that switch, so always plug it in that way, or just make the plug polarized to prevent this problematic situation, but then as i must have babbled elsewhere; why is the cap there? a real question; not yet rhetoric.
73 don? VA3DRL
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 02:52 PM, Richard Knoppow wrote:
I am old enough to remember. Few? homes had polarized sockets when these receivers were new.?
The 0.01 uF capacitor was to bypass RF on the incoming power..............
hi richard ,others too Re; The 0.01 uF capacitor was to bypass RF on the incoming power. well ok it this it true much of the time, any RF incoming? on neutral will be RF connected to chassis so the chassis can vibrate with RF too.? the reversed plug-in? will? take Rf on the hot wire to the chassis.? Light dimmers have a heyday. at least with this capacitor your local BCB station can ride in on the power lines, with no need for an antenna. Re; Three-wire cords won't prevent shocks,? ?depends on the house wiring plus what exactly is "ground"?
I agree, is your house wiring is other than "by code" since say 1975 it might be quite shocking, but if you follow the post 197* rules, the polarization inherent in proper 3-wire stuff will save you in newer equipment, and might save you while doodling with old metal cabinet, transformered Hallis ..... if you first? watch the "polarization",? then maybe add the AC power supply ground, but don't forget what you are going to do with the antenna TB ground wire.
there is too much variation in AC/DC sets to say alot, but for most just AC/DC the chassis voltage is closer to one AC wire or the other so always plug it in with the chassis close to ground... and keep doing that: just flatten and widen the right prong on the plug. and use a GFCI too
worn out again!
73?? don VA3DRL
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Back in the time frame of 1974-75 power tools for CA had to have polarized plug plus double insulated. Most US brands made the switch instead of running 2 production lines. One thing that drives me crazy in old houses was you never knew if the black or white wire was HOT! Then some one installs a modern grounded outlet but no ground wire GRRRR.
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On Tue, Jan 10, 2023 at 05:14 PM, dcc98_05 wrote:
Back in the time frame of 1974-75 power tools for CA had to have polarized plug plus double insulated. Most US brands made the switch instead of running 2 production lines. One thing that drives me crazy in old houses was you never knew if the black or white wire was HOT! Then some one installs a modern grounded outlet but no ground wire GRRRR.
=====end quoted? , begin? comments====
Re: Back in the time frame of 1974-75 power tools for CA had to have polarized plug plus double insulated. Most US brands made the switch instead of running 2 production lines. ?
My recollection is that at first, hand-tools had to be 3-wire¡ making a lot of sense for metal frame tools, and later they allowed 2-wire double insulated perhaps more reasonable for plastic cases, but I was not aware of what the CSA standards said.
?
Re: you never knew if the black or white wire was HOT!?
Long before that, the rule was white for neutral. However, once at/inside any non-polarized outlet, any intent to maintain polarization was lost.
?
Re: Then some one installs a modern grounded outlet but no ground wire GRRRR. ?
Well, if the neutral was really white, there is no excuse for not ensuring polarization, as any grounding [3wire] outlet is inherently polarized. If the wiring did have a ground, there is no excuse for not connecting that correctly, but most likely it did not have a ground wire; and that is the problem anywhere. I think there is still an escape clause here for old buildings, that allows a GFCI to be inserted near panel.
73? don VA3DRL
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Over the years have seen some very creative wiring in houses!! To save wire only run a hot wire to a bathroom for lights then hook to a metal water pipe for a neutral to make it work. Older houses with a fuse box with both hot an neutral with a fuse. So when you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC. The house I grew up in was wired like this. Have a Army generator from 1952? model PE75 that has the 60 volts to ground on both pins. The design dates from 1936 and was used until the mid 70s. the outlet was 2 pin twist lock. ?
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On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 01:54 PM, dcc98_05 wrote:
Over the years have seen some very creative wiring in houses!! To save wire only run a hot wire to a bathroom for lights then hook to a metal water pipe for a neutral to make it work. Older houses with a fuse box with both hot an neutral with a fuse. So when you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC. The house I grew up in was wired like this. Have a Army generator from 1952? model PE75 that has the 60 volts to ground on both pins. The design dates from 1936 and was used until the mid 70s. the outlet was 2 pin twist lock. ?
HI?? dcc98 and any others?
RE:? ¡°creative wiring in houses¡¡..¡± ???interesting, anything was possible in the days of the wild west,
some of the next is said in hindsight, after some sleuthing..and assumptions about how you got this info.. so please forgive me if I am missing something.
?
RE: Older houses with a fuse box with both hot an neutral with a fuse. ¡¡± .. I wonder ¡or maybe.. 2 hot lines and an unseen gnded-neutral? are you sure what really enters the house?
RE: So when you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC. ??¡.. I wonder ¡ see measurements and DMMs below.?
RE: ??¡°²µ±ð²Ô±ð°ù²¹³Ù´Ç°ù ??has the 60 volts to ground on both pins¡± ¡.. I wonder again? see capture of the manual¡and ?see measurements and DMMs below.
Your situation tweaked my curiosity.. anything was possible, but I wonder just where and how these voltages are/were determined¡?
You said ?¡°¡.you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC.¡± --- I will quibble about ¡°ground¡±.. what/where is? ¡°ground¡±.. is it really ground= grounded ..or is just a should-be ground?
?
Also, these Hi Z? ?DMM ?meters can badly fool anyone as the ?capacitive coupling in the wire and/or slight dielectric leakage? becomes real voltage/power ?to the meter, so if voltages are from one of those
?
The generator info i found is that it is 110vac,? without comment on possible 60-60 split, or neutral, or ground
I can only guess that the generator neutral is not grounded.. to the frame
?
as Steve often says ¡°the plot thickens¡±... have a look at this
73 don? VA3DRL
??
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In the 1960's, CAP Comms units were issued a large number of PE-75s.? They had a Briggs/S engine and would put out 2.5kw 24/7.? The manual showed the gen connected to 3 or 4 GI gas cans interconnected and were used to power a remote radio relay site, it appeared. The PE-75 has a fuel pump. They were a very reliable genset that 4 could carry via a sedan chair arrangement. Nuff said......
Jeep K3HVG
On 01/12/2023 9:26 PM don Root <drootofallevil@...> wrote:
On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 01:54 PM, dcc98_05 wrote:
Over the years have seen some very creative wiring in houses!! To save wire only run a hot wire to a bathroom for lights then hook to a metal water pipe for a neutral to make it work. Older houses with a fuse box with both hot an neutral with a fuse. So when you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC. The house I grew up in was wired like this. Have a Army generator from 1952? model PE75 that has the 60 volts to ground on both pins. The design dates from 1936 and was used until the mid 70s. the outlet was 2 pin twist lock. ?
HI?? dcc98 and any others?
RE:? ¡°creative wiring in houses¡¡..¡± ???interesting, anything was possible in the days of the wild west,
some of the next is said in hindsight, after some sleuthing..and assumptions about how you got this info.. so please forgive me if I am missing something.
?
RE: Older houses with a fuse box with both hot an neutral with a fuse. ¡¡± .. I wonder ¡or maybe.. 2 hot lines and an unseen gnded-neutral? are you sure what really enters the house?
RE: So when you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC. ??¡.. I wonder ¡ see measurements and DMMs below.?
RE: ??¡°²µ±ð²Ô±ð°ù²¹³Ù´Ç°ù ??has the 60 volts to ground on both pins¡± ¡.. I wonder again? see capture of the manual¡and ?see measurements and DMMs below.
Your situation tweaked my curiosity.. anything was possible, but I wonder just where and how these voltages are/were determined¡?
You said ?¡°¡.you measure from the hot or (neutral) to ground you get 60 volts AC.¡± --- I will quibble about ¡°ground¡±.. what/where is? ¡°ground¡±.. is it really ground= grounded ..or is just a should-be ground?
?
Also, these Hi Z? ?DMM ?meters can badly fool anyone as the ?capacitive coupling in the wire and/or slight dielectric leakage? becomes real voltage/power ?to the meter, so if voltages are from one of those
?
The generator info i found is that it is 110vac,? without comment on possible 60-60 split, or neutral, or ground
I can only guess that the generator neutral is not grounded.. to the frame
?
as Steve often says ¡°the plot thickens¡±... have a look at this
73 don? VA3DRL
??
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? My generator is a PE-75-AF the last of a long line of models. Voltages measurement were taken with a Fluke meter. Have TM11-900A which covers my gen set. Found the TM over on smokstak. The house I grew up in was in South Tampa . The ground was a metal pipe driven in the ground near the house. My dad had a meter sold by Sears model unknown. When the Service was upgraded Teco had to install a new transformer on the power pole. The old transformer remained in place for the other houses. My dad passed in 1994 and the old transformer was still in service at that time. The house was built in 1903 and received electric power in 1931. The orginal lighting was with gas. The wiring was ball and tube which was all replaced with the new service. ?
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don Root