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In our group we are getting several subscribers per day who are being taken off groups. IO for marking messages as spam. It started a few days ago. I notified all of our members three days ago to let them know this was going on and it will soon be over.
My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?
Ullmang

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 09:51 AM, Ullman Garrett wrote:

My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?

Groups.io does not attempt to filter spam -- too many false positives. If any spam filtering is going on, it's your own provider doing it.?
?
As to whether such changes are reported to you, that varies widely, depending on the provider. Most seem to feel such details in your mail delivery aren't something that you need to know.

I hope this helps, but it probably doesn't.

Bruce

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On Sat, 02 May 2020 06:57:59 -0700, "Bruce Bowman"
<bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

If any spam filtering is going on, it's your own provider doing it.

At least some ISPs and webmail providers have a process where you can
change settings for the spam filter.

With Roadrunner email, for example, I can turn the filter off
completely or have it mark suspected spam but still send it to my
inbox. I chose the latter.

I wasn't even aware they were filtering spam until email I was
expecting never arrived.

Worse yet, many providers will auto-delete email in your spam filter
after a set period of time, like 30 days. They expect you to review
the spam folder. The problem is (and it was so with my situation) that
they don't always communicate this to the user, and the spam folder
may be on their web site somewhere that you have no idea where to look
for it.

With DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and
Conformance), if your ISP marks a GIO post as spam and then either
they auto-delete it or the user reads the post in the spam folder,
doesn't move it to the inbox, and he deletes it in the spam folder, it
gets counted as marking it as spam. The email provider then sends a
message to GIO to unsubscribe the user.

We had no choice in the matter when this was implemented by the big
email providers. It was forced upon us (without notice in most cases).
GIO must unsubscribe the user or face the consequence of being
blacklisted for all messages sent by them.

Unfortunately, the user then blames GIO for this, totally unaware that
this isn't their fault at all. DMARC is here to stay. I tried to find
an article about how the marking a message as spam triggers an
unsubscribe request other than the one in the GIO help pages.

/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam


Donald



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Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
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On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Ullman Garrett wrote:

My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?

My mail service provider played this trick on me a few weeks ago. :( Not only did it not tell me (or anyone else AFAIK) but it made it as hard as it could to find a workaround.

In "your" case it is possible that the problem stems from additions to the list of providers with which Groups.io operates FBLs. Mark announced this on beta, specifically . The GMF wiki on the subject (here) was updated accordingly.

It there any recognisable pattern amongst those of your members who are being ejected, i.e. commonality of mail provider?

Chris

Donald,

With DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and
Conformance),

Actually, DMARC relates only to how a receiving service should treat messages with a forged "From" address (a "spoofed" address). It does not specify anything about subsequent processing of messages deemed to be spam by the receiving service or its users.

if your ISP marks a GIO post as spam and then either they auto-delete
it or the user reads the post in the spam folder, doesn't move it to
the inbox, and he deletes it in the spam folder, it gets counted as
marking it as spam. The email provider then sends a message to GIO to
unsubscribe the user.

This is the FBL (feedback loop) mechanism. It has evolved over the last several years and is becoming more standardized.
(email)

The basic intent is to deal with situations where an email user loses interest in (or never had an interest in) some list, and the user either marks the messages as spam, or fails to proactively move the list's messages out of their spam folder. The assumption then is that this user is uninterested in this list, and should be unsubscribed from it to reduce the number of undesired messages being transferred.

The failing of course is that many email users are unaware of their spam folder, or know about it but neglect to check it, yet expect to reliably receive messages from the list. Such expectations are explicitly shattered by the FBL mechanism. The member may be upset by this, but the alternative is for the member to continue to wonder why they are seeing only some of the list's messages in their Inbox.

Shal


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Shal . . .

On Sat, 2 May 2020 10:20:43 -0700, "Shal Farley" <shals2nd@...>
wrote:

This is the FBL (feedback loop) mechanism. It has evolved over the last
several years and is becoming more standardized.
(email)

Thanks for the explanation. All this time I thought it was part of
DMARC.

This is something that doesn't seem to be well implemented. Plenty of
people have no idea it exists, as well as many don't even know there's
a hidden spam folder (for some email services). I stumbled upon mine
when I wasn't receiving emails I was expecting. But the cable company
doesn't tell you about it. At least not in a way that I took notice
of. The information is hidden somewhere on their web site.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM
/g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp

On May 2nd Chris Jones asked If they were common providers involved with unsubscription due to marking mail as spam.
The providers were:
Comcast, AOL, Yahoo, Windstream
All except Comcast have been guilty in the past of pushing emails into the spam folders. I understand why Comcast is now added to the list.
I think I read somewhere that many services subscribe to spam filters produced by someone. Obviously something changed in the last few days affecting AOL and Yahoo.?

Donald,

This is something that doesn't seem to be well implemented. Plenty of
people have no idea it exists, as well as many don't even know there's
a hidden spam folder (for some email services).

That few would know about the FBL mechanism isn't surprising, its operation is intended to be "behind the scenes". And I suspect in most cases it is - when the user in question really didn't care about messages from that list anymore.

But an email user who doesn't know about their Spam folder and how to use it is a bit more shocking, that's been a commonplace feature in email interfaces for so long now.

Users of mobile devices may face a more difficult learning curve. The Spam folder may or may not be easy to find in the tiny user interface. I find the Android app for Gmail only barely usable for managing misdirected messages and defer such action until I'm at the webmail interface.

I stumbled upon mine when I wasn't receiving emails I was expecting.
But the cable company doesn't tell you about it. At least not in a way
that I took notice of. The information is hidden somewhere on their
web site.

Users of client software on their computer likewise. The Spam folder may or may not be exposed in the user interface by default, or may not be accessible at all (users of POP clients) without going to the service's webmail interface. Also, I'm never sure with a given email service if using IMAP to move messages between Spam and Inbox actually signals the "spam" and "not spam" training of the service's filter.

I suppose too that the better services' spam filters may be victims of their own success - they strive to have no false positives (desired mail quarantined) and no false negatives (undesired mail in the Inbox) and to the extent they succeed then their users don't need to do anything. Action is only required when the automatic filter makes a mistake.

Shal


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Larry,

scroll down to Spam Blacklist Lookup and enter one of groups.io
IP addresses such as 173.255.221.194.

The only Groups.io address that matters for this purpose is 66.175.222.12 - their outbound email server.

Until such time as they use more than one outbound address, but I don't know if that will ever happen. With a cloud-based architecture such as Groups.io uses the actual servers are behind the cloud vendor's network interface, and I believe any number of physical and/or virtual servers might go outbound through that one address.

Shal


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Shal . . .

On Sun, 3 May 2020 12:39:13 -0700, "Shal Farley" <shals2nd@...>
wrote:

But an email user who doesn't know about their Spam folder and how to
use it is a bit more shocking, that's been a commonplace feature in
email interfaces for so long now.

Roadrunner email has the spam filter on their web site. If you're
using an email client, you don't see it.

It is visible on their web interface, though. Many don't ever use the
web interface and rely on their client for email reading and sending.

I found it on their site and found that I had email I wanted stuck in
that folder. I was able to choose from three options to either send
all email, send all but suspected spam email, or send all email but
mark suspected spam as such in the subject line appended to the
beginning of the subject line. I chose the latter and deal with spam
myself, also using my email client's spam filter, which I can let it
learn from dragging spam into the junk folder or I can set up filters
based on matching certain things in the headers.

Donald


----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM
/g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp

Larry,

Here is the report for that IP. There are four RBLs that list it, but
none of them are important ones that would affect most of the world:

SORBS is one that I recognize. Which means it is old-school, and was likely a thorn in the side of Yahoo Groups delivery at some point in the past.

I don't run an email service so I don't really have the background to say whether these lists provide any benefit these days. My impression is that they just cause trouble, but then I don't have any way of knowing how much actual spam is kept out of the email services that use them.

Regardless, I think it is incumbent on the email service to notice and evaluate a large source of messages, such as Groups.io, and bypass/ignore RBL results for a "familiar" source. At best the RBLs provide a source of reputation information regarding sources for which the email service has little or no prior experience of its own.

Shal


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