I have premium group with numerous subgroups. We don't use the invite function typically because Direct Add is so much better.

However, I have a subgroup where I have a new moderator who sent an invitation to a add a person to that subgroup. She didn't know that the person was not a member of the main group, and this subgroup moderator is NOT a moderator in the main group.

The person replied to the invitation, and was added to both the subgroup and main group.? Imagine my surprise weeks later when I found out.

I can't say this is a bug - I can certainly say that it is not behavior that I want to happen.? I'm not sure how to lock down the main group so that subgroups can't add members. Am I missing a setting?
Thanks
Beth

One thing you can do is to go into this person's settings and limit their moderator permissions.?

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 05:10 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

Am I missing a setting?

Disclosure: I don't know; the Groups I co - own doesn't have subgroups; neither (as a Basic Group) can we Direct Add members.

However, in a basic group a moderator can be denied the privilege of inviting members, so it is possible that in a paid-for group a moderator can be prevented from Direct Adding someone as well.

Have a look at what Moderator Privileges are available to you as a paid-for group (subgroup privileges are separately per subgroup) and take away any that you don't want specific moderators to have. You should certainly be able to stop them inviting new members. ?

Chris

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Beth,

I can't say this is a bug - I can certainly say that it is not behavior that I want to happen.?

?
- If by that you mean the mod being able to (indirectly) add a member, the solution is to limit their member-editing privileges as was stated.

- If by that you mean a subgroup member getting added to the main group as well when one would like them to only be in the subgroup, that's not a bug or even unwanted behaviour, it is because the subgroup is just that, a subgroup of the main group, and you cannot have members belonging to a subgroup and not to the main group***. (although you can the other way around)

***if you want that, you need a separate group, not a subgroup.

Cheers,
Christos

Beth,

Beth,

I can't say this is a bug - I can certainly say that it is not
behavior that I want to happen.

As Andy said, it is by design.

The intent is that when you want a person to be a member of the subgroup you (and the invitee) don't have to go through the Invite process twice: first for the primary group and then all over again for the Subgroup.

With Direct add you do it somewhat the other way around: you Direct Add the person to the primary group, with the intended subgroup(s) checkmarked.

It is possible that a sensible #suggestion for beta would be to have Invite work like Direct Add. I haven't really thought about it that way, so I'm not sure if it would introduce any issues or more confusion.

I'm not sure how to lock down the main group so that subgroups can't
add members. Am I missing a setting?

Anything you want to lock down about a subgroup, you generally do though the subgroup's Settings page, not the primary's. The only exception I can think of offhand is the ability to create subgroups.

Shal


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Thanks everyone,
I want the mod to be able to add members to the subgroup but only if they are already members of the main group. It sounds like I can't do that, and I think I vaguely remember the discussions about the duplicate invitations.? Back to the drawing board. I'd actually like to be able to turn of the Invitations feature for the main group and all subgroups, but that is a bit granular for the suggestion box in Beta.
Thanks again
Beth

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:40 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

I'd actually like to be able to turn of the Invitations feature for the main group and all subgroups, but that is a bit granular for the suggestion box in Beta.

No need to go anywhere near beta; just turn off Moderators' ability to invite or add new members.

Chris

On 07/01/2021 13:25, Beth Weld wrote:

I want the mod to be able to add members to the subgroup but only if they are already members of the main group.

This sounds sensible to me. If someone is a member of the main group, it means that they have already passed some form of vetting.

I'd actually like to be able to turn of the Invitations feature for the main group and all subgroups, but that is a bit granular for the suggestion box in Beta.

Well, one alternative is to disable invitation permissions for the subgroup moderators but to create a template that moderators can send directly to invitees via their personal e-mail, that essentially tells the recipient how to join.

This is not a true "invitation" since the recipient would still have to do something manually in order to join, but it can be made to contain information that would otherwise be sent to people who get invited.

It does not appear to be possible for moderators to send messages or noticed to non-members via Groups.io, so the subgroup moderator would have to send the customized template via his own personal e-mail.

Samuel

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 12:40 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

I want the mod to be able to add members to the subgroup but only if they are already members of the main group. It sounds like I can't do that

No and that's because the Add Members permission for a Mod in a subgroup also opens up the Invite option.? If they were separate permissions you could grant the Add (which allows adding of main group members) without giving Invite also.

Regards
Andy

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Beth,

>>> I want the mod to be able to add members to the subgroup but only if they are already members of the main group.
?
You'd like a system-enforced way of doing this in other words because a manual protocol-based way already exists (don't use Invite if you're a subgroup mod, only DirectAdd) in which case a beta #suggestion is your only option, based on current functionality.?

The problem exists because in the main group mod's settings, there is the "Invite Members" option which controls the display/enabling of the Invite option but only Owners see the DirectAdd option; in the subgroups however there's some inconsistency, there is no "Invite Members" setting but it's "replaced" with "Add Members", which now controls the subgroup display/enabling of both the DirectAdd (from main group) option (correct) and Invite option (not really correct if you think about it).? The way it works now may had made sense initially, before the subgroup and main membership requirement was introduced, and maybe it was an oversight/wasn't mentioned/anticipated at the time, I don't know.

The absolute quickest way to fix this would be to change the subgroup mod's "Add Members" text to say "Invite Members", as with the leaving the existing functionality that will remove the subgroup "Invite" option; but it would also remove the subgroup "DirectAdd" option which can make a subgroup mod less functional/capable overall, if they are also supposed to (direct)add members, so this would not be a good fix really.

The other very quick way to fix this with a 1-2 line of code change is to always hide/disable the "Invite" option for subgroups altogether for everyone but the owners.? This will bring the "Add Members" text closer to what may really be meant, i.e. "Add Members" really means "(Direct)Add (existing main group) Members (only)"; it will also move the main vs sub group functionality/behavior in that regard closer together.

Lastly, the most correct and granular but more work solution, add an "Invite Members" setting as well for subgroup mods below the "Add Members" setting, and adjust the display/enabling of "DirectAdd" and "Invite" options in subgroups based on these two settings.

Now regardless of the above, I wonder, why don't you want to allow the subgroup mod to invite folks to the subgroup?? If you think about it, in the end it's the same thing: whether a subgroup mod invited someone to a specific subgroup, or a main group mod invited a member (for the purposes of adding them to the subgroup) and then added them to the subgroup, the same end result in effect takes place, in both cases the member gets added to the subgroup and gets added to the main group by no choice, so why fight it?? So knowing that the Invite option is there for subgroup mods and cannot be turned off currently (without crippling the subgroup mod), and assuming you could allow the subgroup mod to invite people to the subgroup "only" since "might as well, same deal", Why not use something like the inelegant-can-work protocol-based solution below to accomplice this:

1. Add the subgroup mod to the main group mod pool as well (no need for notifs, etc), and in their main group mod settings, set only the "View Member List" option checked; possibly also set the "Set Member Subscription Options" setting as well, depending on...(*1)

2. Per protocol, before the subgroup mod sends the invitation from the subgroup, they check the main group member list to see if that email address is already a main group member, and:

- If Yes, no invite is sent but the subgroup mod just DirectAdds that member using the subgroup's DirectAdd option.

- If No, go ahead and send the invite from the subgroup; after the invitee accepts, in addition to any new-member tasks that now may already take place, the subgroup mod edits the invitee's main group subscription and sets it to "lurker" mode, again depending on (*1) -- or if as a matter of protocol you don't want them to do it in this case but leave it to a higher-privileged main group mod to handle it, then I guess the subgroup mod is only permitted to do as far as step 2-Yes and that's it.

Cheers,
Christos

(*1) I guess it would depend on what the default/minimum subscription option is on the main group; if None or Special, then no need for that second setting, but if anything higher (which would cause the new subgroup member to unwittingly also start getting main group messages), regardless of whether a main group mod adds a subgroup new member or a sub group mod invite-adds a subgroup new member, it shouldn't be up to the member to go and set their main group subscription to none/special (after all they didn't ask to be added to the main group); a mod should do that for them(*2) to make the subgroup-only invite addition seamless; now whether the capability and task of that is given to the subgroup mod, or no capability is given to them and they have to notify a more-privileged main group mod to do so for them, depends on your desired protocol.

(*2) this fact IMO should also be communicated to the new member so they know they were also added to the main group (cause no choice in that) but their main group subscription was set to None/whatever, just in case they may be interested in also engaging with the main group, in which case, they should also be reminded to now reset their main group subscription options themselves to their desired options.

Thanks everyone,
Christos, in answer to your question on why I don't want subgroup moderators to be able to add a member to the main group- we have a complicated setup in groups.io with many subgroups.?

If a person is direct added to the main group we also add them to 4-5 subgroups depending on requirements.? If a person is invited to a subgroup and automatically added to the main group, they don't get added to the other subgroups so are not added correctly.? If a person is already in the main group then adding to a different subgroup is fine.

I assign moderators to each subgroup based on their need to manage that subgroup. I definitely don't want all of them to be a moderator of the main group and have access to all subgroups. They each manage their subgroup(s) and don't stray into other subgroups.

It is basically a question of control and trying to limit the scope of a moderator. It is not that I think that anyone is going to knowingly screw things up - but we are all volunteers, and it can be very easy to do something by mistake.

Education sounds like my best plan - and watching the main group activity logs.
Many thanks everyone
Beth

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 12:49 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

If a person is direct added to the main group we also add them to 4-5 subgroups depending on requirements.

It sounds like we have a similar set-up. We have a pre-approved club membership list which is managed externally to Groups.io. As people join, they are Direct Added to our main group and relevant subgroups and as they leave they are removed.? Allowing subgroup Mods to invite people to a subgroup means they are added to the main group and therefore the Mods have an element of control over the main group that we do not want.

Andy

I would just like to point out that if someone could be added to a subgroup and not the main group, then it would no longer be a subgroup, it would be some other group with partially overlapping members.

Best,

Glenn