1)? If you look at the link Duane sent you, at the bottom of the list of things, Mark Fletcher wrote

"I am on vacation through Wednesday, August 16th. The beta group will be moderated during that time; expect message approval within a couple of days. The next #changelog will be published on August 18, 2023. "

2)? Several people have written, suggesting you post MORE DETAILS!? you've really not told much about what's happening --

Copy/pasting:

"Not to be snarky but you could try to explicitly and completely answer the questions posed by people trying to help you. Such as:

? Are there other owners or moderators?
? Can you log onto Groups.io?
? What are the details of the SPAM removal message(s)?
? What can you do and not do with your group?
? Other questions that have been asked or other useful info?? "?

Duane,

So how do contact Mark to help me out with this?? ?I sent an email to his member 1 account.? or? ? is there another way to contact him.?

Jim Allen

I tried to join Jim’s group, just to get a message to other group owners or moderators about Jim’s predicament. Still showing as application in process, so I assume the answer is that they have noone else to help manage. Once again I am very grateful to members of this group for their continuing advisement over time to have some backups in group ownership and management. And to read the manual thoroughly before making any changes. I also am not trying to be snarky; was trying to help Jim out by going in through another route.
--
Pat P

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 04:01 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

When will Mark be back to assist me?

See

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

When will Mark be back to assist me?

Jim Allen

Mon, 07 Aug 2023 08:15:38 -0700, "Duane" <txpigeon@...>, wrote:

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 10:06 AM, Art Kocsis wrote:

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the
difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur
(although at this point that would be quite rare). Greg D outlined one
such possibility.

Hasn't happened that I know of.? Mark has all sorts of interlocks to prevent the last owner from being removed.

Duane

Why did it happen to me?

Arno

Mon, 07 Aug 2023 07:51:43 -0700, "Art Kocsis via groups.io"
<ArtKoc@...>, wrote:

I propose a new category for group permissions: Founder.

A founder would have identical rights and permissions as a regular
group owner but with these differences:

? There can be only one founder per group
? Founder status can only be removed or transferred to another by a founder
? Founder status is automatically conferred onto the creator of a new group
? The existence of a founder is not required for a group

[ ... ]

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the
difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur

Art

If the Founder is no longer available how can the scenario of in fight amongst
several co-owners and deleting each other be prevented.
In my case the Founder disappeared after making me a moderator with limited
powers. Mark transferred the Yahoogroup in 2017 and made me the owner.

Unless I goofed up on something else, "should" instead of "will" is the reason
for the thread below.

"[GMF] Due to eMail change lost group where I was the only owner"

Arno

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 11:06 AM, Art Kocsis wrote:

Not to be snarky but you could try to explicitly and completely answer the questions posed by people trying to help you. Such as:

? Are there other owners or moderators?
? Can you log onto Groups.io?
? What are the details of the SPAM removal message(s)?
? What can you do and not do with your group?
? Other questions that have been asked or other useful info

The OP has his subscription set to No Mail. This is not new, but I wanted to say that he may not see your suggestions unless he logs into his account.

Frances
?
--
Help available from Groups.io help and GMF wiki.

?

...
Du| Mark has all sorts of interlocks
| to prevent the last owner from
| being removed.


But as we are witnessing, users
always find a creative way to
dodge these attempts to prevent
the last owner from lost control
of a group... :)

It's hard the life of a developer.


[ ] Rubens




.

On Mon, Aug 7, 2023 at 10:06 AM, Art Kocsis wrote:

(And still be stuck with automatic payment if that had been setup?)

Won't happen.? A person that is no longer a member of a group cannot be the payor.

I propose a new category for group permissions: Founder.

This has been gone over multiple times from various angles.? Nothing has been done, so I doubt that it's a high priority, if it even exists on the TODO list.

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur (although at this point that would be quite rare). Greg D outlined one such possibility.

Hasn't happened that I know of.? Mark has all sorts of interlocks to prevent the last owner from being removed.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

On 08-06-2023 16:51, Jim Allen wrote:

I don't know what else to do but get assistance. I will have to wait for it I guess.

Not to be snarky but you could try to explicitly and completely answer the questions posed by people trying to help you. Such as:

? Are there other owners or moderators?
? Can you log onto Groups.io?
? What are the details of the SPAM removal message(s)?
? What can you do and not do with your group?
? Other questions that have been asked or other useful info

Art

On 08-06-2023 09:40, Jim Allen wrote:

I woke up this morning and am no longer the owner. I had to different emails as such both have been deleted. Why? I want my group back.

My immediate thought was that a rogue co-owner had co-opted the group and had locked the OP out. While this may or may not be the actual case, the possibility exists.

Group ownership has been discussed (and beaten to death?), here and in the beta group.
Some changes were made but, at least for me, not satisfactorily. Orphaned groups continue to pop up - not all due to laziness, procrastination or ignorance of the owners. I suspect many owners are reticent to create co-owners just for this very reason - there is nothing to prevent one owner from locking another owner out and stealing or destroying the group.

In this day and age of internet nasties, nefarious forum attacks/activities may not be at the top of the list but they do exist. These forums, by definition, span the globe and most members/owners have never met face to face. So for a group founder who has nurtured his baby into a viable community and is needing to have the safety of a co-owner, who can he trust? How can he assure that someone he promotes to co-ownership doesn't steal his group? (And still be stuck with automatic payment if that had been setup?) With the current system, he can't. I suspect that that is the main reason a significant number of groups do not have a co-owner and may become orphan groups (with more to come in the future).

I propose a new category for group permissions: Founder.

A founder would have identical rights and permissions as a regular group owner but with these differences:

? There can be only one founder per group
? Founder status can only be removed or transferred to another by a founder
? Founder status is automatically conferred onto the creator of a new group
? The existence of a founder is not required for a group

That should ensure that a group Founder would never be unwillingly locked out of a group he founded. It, hopefully, would also increase the compliance with creating co-owners and decrease orphaned groups. This could be implemented without upsetting the status quo of permissions and ownerships.

To get started, owners of existing groups with a single owner could promote themselves to founder status. For existing groups with a single RL owner but with multiple "owner" addresses, the owner could temporarily demote all "owners" but one in order to establish "Foundership" status. For existing groups with multiple RL owners, a "Founder" is probably not necessary nor desired. To change the address of a Founder, he could create a new regular owner and then transfer "Foundership" status to that address.

Comments?

BTW: "Groups.io will never remove the last owner."

"will" is better replaced by "should". We all have experienced the difference between what code "should do" and what actually can occur (although at this point that would be quite rare). Greg D outlined one such possibility.

Art

开云体育

Frances . . .

On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 18:57:25 -0700, "Frances" <frances@...> wrote:

Ken, Duane suggested that he sign in with his second account. Both would not be removed.

Jim still has not told us whether there was a third, fourth, or even more
owners. If there were, then one of them deleted him IF he can't log in with
either of his admin accounts. If he can log in with his other admin account, he
should be able to rectify the situation himself.

We can't do much of anything for him until we know if he can log in with his
other admin account and if his group had more than 2 owners (him being the 2).


Donald KX8K



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

Jim . . .

On Sun, 06 Aug 2023 09:40:05 -0700, "Jim Allen" <jimp72@...> wrote:

I woke up this morning and am no longer the owner. I had to different emails as such both have been deleted.

I don't think you answered the question about whether your group had a third
owner (or even more) or not???


Donald



----------------------------------------------------
Some ham radio groups you may be interested in:
/g/ICOM /g/Ham-Antennas
/g/HamRadioHelp /g/Baofeng
/g/CHIRP

开云体育

Playing software engineer...?

Wonder if there's a race condition here?? Both of the owner's email accounts got a message at about the same time, each rejecting it as Spam.? Two different Groups.io administrative threads started working on the Spam removal receipts in parallel, each checking whether their email was the last owner, and each (seeing the other was still there) allowing the removal?? When each thread ends, their owner is gone; having two threads in parallel removed both.?

Just a thought...? no idea if this is how it actually works.

Greg

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 09:55 PM, Ken N wrote:

So, he has no alternate owner to approve his reinstatement. At the start, I thought rejoining was the easy route, but needing an owner approval makes that impossible. I’m surprised the system allows a group to be left without ANY owner.

Ken, Duane suggested that he sign in with his second account. Both would not be removed.?
As Duane also wrote: ?"If those were the only 2 owners, then both of them would not have been removed. ?Groups.io will never remove the last owner. ?Have you logged in with both email addresses?"

Duane,

Jim already said:

On Aug 6, 2023, at 12:22 PM, Jim Allen <jimp72@...> wrote:

I had two separate email accounts set up for just this reason and it looks like both are gone!!!!

Jim

So, he has no alternate owner to approve his reinstatement. At the start, I thought rejoining was the easy route, but needing an owner approval makes that impossible. I’m surprised the system allows a group to be left without ANY owner.

Ken N
Oxnard, CA

On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 07:25 PM, Jim Allen wrote:

I don’t know what else to do but get assistance.

Sign in with the other account that you have as an owner.

Duane
--
Lots of detailed information can be found in the Owners Manual and Members Manual.

I found the email and clicked the link to be added back to the group. Nothing happened other than I got an email that said my membership is waiting for approval. Frustrating. I was in the process of adding another individual as a moderator.

I don’t know what else to do but get assistance. ? I will have to wait for it I guess.?

?