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Now that the first of the month has come and the Group Guidelines email has gone out, I would like to discuss the way it operates. I think there should be some tweaks done, but hope we can figure out exactly what they should be before posting suggestions on beta@.

I see that there's nothing added to the Activity Log when the notice is sent, individually or for the monthly reminder. It also doesn't get sent to the group archives, so those that read online never see it. Other than being sent to new members, if selected, I think it should be treated like any other message - sent to the group and shown in the Activity Log. It should go to the group so it shows in the archives for those that work online. The one 'problem' I can see with this is that someone may see an old version and follow the wrong rules. One way around this may to be to add a hashtag (#Monthly ?) to the Subject that would be set to delete the thread after a month.

Has anyone noticed anything else that isn't quite intuitive or would improve the operation?

Duane

Yes, I agree with all of that (except for the idea that there should be general agreement here before posting suggestions on beta - we may not agree here and I think it's still fine to post suggestions on beta).

I also had a problem in my group because of the lack of the words "monthly reminder" in the title, which caused some group members to worry that they alone were receiving the guidelines because of something they had done wrong. I've already emailed Mark offlist about the possibility of adding that. Your hashtag idea would also suffice. I think it might be slightly inconvenient, although probably not too difficult, to implement either thing, since the guidelines were implemented as a notice and currently has no provision for a special subject line or tag. An optional "custom title" for the monthly send might be a way to go.

J

I should have explained better. I don't expect for us to have a proposal that would be set in stone, more like Jello. Since there are many on beta@ that aren't here, I'm sure there would be additional suggestions there as well.

It looks to me like you can change the subject on any of the notices, possibly adding a hashtag. I haven't tried it yet, but plan to do a test or two. It might seem a bit odd if a new member got "Group Guidelines Monthly Reminder" if you have it set to 'Send on join', but might not be too disconcerting since it would be a one time thing. Possibly combine it with the expiration, so use the hashtag #MonthlyReminder instead of changing the name?

I also realize that those online could click on the left tab, but I'd prefer that it be part of the archive, at least until the next month, so they're more apt to see it, especially if there have been changes.

Duane

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 01:51 pm, Duane wrote:

you can change the subject on any of the notices,

Yes, and you can add things to a notice. But I think it *would* be too disconcerting (and/or just klugey and unprofessional) to have it say "monthly reminder" for members who get it on joining or individually.

If a change is not made to the system I plan on adding a permanent preface to the effect of "group guidelines for new members and monthly reminders." The wording is going to be awkward no matter what, and I would much prefer a system change. A simple checkbox ("include title monthly reminder?") indented with "send monthly" would do the job. A better way would be an optional custom title.?

J

Duane,

Now that the first of the month has come and the Group Guidelines
email has gone out, I would like to discuss the way it operates.

Has anyone noticed anything else that isn't quite intuitive ...

o Doesn't include the group tag in its subject

While the From field identifies the group, I'd like to have the group's tag in the subject so that my eyes (and filters) can readily distinguish it as group-related content.

o Doesn't include a system automatic hashtag in its subject

A specific hashtag for the guidelines would also be useful for distinction and filtering. Also, groups could use this hashtag to set a message duration or other options.

o Is from the group +owner address.

This might actually be the better choice. I suspect in most groups discussion of the group guidelines would off-topic and better directed to the group admins.

I see that there's nothing added to the Activity Log ...

That sounds like an oops.

It also doesn't get sent to the group archives, ...

That's a big one.

On the one hand the members that work online can simply click to the guidelines page to see them; on the other hand putting them in the Message archive serves as a reminder that they exist. And would inform those members who read primarily through the Topics compendium on their home page rather than through each group's pages.

On the whole I think it should be posted like a regular message, as event notices and reminders are.

Shal

J,

I also had a problem in my group because of the lack of the words
"monthly reminder" in the title, which caused some group members to
worry that they alone were receiving the guidelines because of
something they had done wrong.

Having the group's tag in the subject might have calmed them - then it looks more like a message sent to everyone.

An optional "custom title" for the monthly send might be a way to go.

I think it might be simpler and more obvious the other way around. Have the monthly go out with its Subject line (plus tag & hashtag, please); but when you elect to send it to one or more members pre-fill the Subject line on that message composition with just the Subject (no tag or hashtag) and don't save any changes you make there back to the actual notice.

That way you could customize the subject to suit the member and/or circumstance when sending to particular members.

Shal

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 03:57 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

Having the group's tag in the subject might have calmed them - then it looks more like a message sent to everyone.

Absolutely agree.

Have the monthly go out with its Subject line (plus tag & hashtag, please); but when you elect to send it to one or more members pre-fill the Subject line on that message composition with just the Subject (no tag or hashtag) and don't save any changes you make there back to the actual notice.

Yes, I thought of that. But you still have the problem of the auto-send on join. So this doesn't solve the problem.

J

J,

Duane wrote:

I don't expect for us to have a proposal that would be set in stone,
more like Jello.

I agree. The goal here shouldn't be to create a unified proposal, but to refine our ideas. To the extent that we can bounce ideas off of each other here we can avoid flooding beta@ with a bunch of back-and-forth side arguments.

I've already learned a thing or two from this discussion.

Shal

Duane,

It looks to me like you can change the subject on any of the notices,
possibly adding a hashtag. I haven't tried it yet, but plan to do a
test or two.

Likewise. Too bad I won't see the results 'til next month... :(

It might seem a bit odd if a new member got "Group Guidelines Monthly
Reminder" if you have it set to 'Send on join', ...

Oh, good point I need to test that too.

Possibly combine it with the expiration, so use the hashtag
#MonthlyReminder instead of changing the name?

That seems like a good idea. The two automatic emails (monthly and join) could have different automatic hashtags without needing fully customized Subjects.

The other idea would be two separate Subject fields, one under the "Send on join" checkbox and one under the "Send monthly". That would allow the group admin to fully customize the subject text.

I did a quick test of sending the guidelines to a particular member and found two things:

o Send Message prepends the group tag to the subject as sent.

o Changes to the Subject field in Send Message do not affect the Subject field in the list of member notices.

The first was a surprise, the second a relief.

In particular the second means that admins can do what I suggested: completely customize the subject line as sent to individual members:

[shalstest] Hey dingus, did you forget rule 6?

Shal

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 04:34 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

It might seem a bit odd if a new member got "Group Guidelines Monthly
Reminder" if you have it set to 'Send on join', ...

Oh, good point I need to test that too.

I've come up with a work-around that should take care of the Subject part, but, like you, won't be able to see if it works until next month. What I did was make the subject line read "[MyGroupName] Group Guidelines Reminder". Since it doesn't specify frequency, it should work for all situations. I guess that could still be interpreted as being directed at a particular member though. Maybe "[MyGroupName] Scheduled Group Guidelines Reminder"? I doubt that I'll be sending them to anyone directly, but could easily remove the group tag part or completely customize it if I do.

Now if was only logged and sent to the group...

Duane

On Mon, Oct 2, 2017 at 06:19 pm, Duane wrote:

Group Guidelines Reminder. Since it doesn't specify frequency, it should work for all situations.

I still think this is odd to send to a new member. It's not a "reminder" to a new member and the sloppy language would put me off the group.

J

Yes, it's not a reminder of something previously seen or mentioned, but I'm thinking of it as a reminder to read and follow the guidelines. How you would interpret it may depend on which country or even which part of a country you're in.

BTW, I decided to go with adding 'Scheduled' to the subject so folks may be less likely to think it's addressed only to them.

Duane

I don't the word 'reminder' changes meaning much. And I personally would never use it in the first guidelines message a member receives.

Using 'scheduled' is a slight improvement.

J

Sent from my iPhone

I believe i Have the subject of "monthly rules" i my guide lines that every member?receives.?And if they do not follow them 3 times they are out, for good. We have 400 members and I don't have ?time to baby everybody so I use the same guide lines I've used for 13 years of running this list.
[excess quote trimmed by moderator]

On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 01:15 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

I don't the word 'reminder' changes meaning much.

Then using it as I will is correct (#2):

1. something that recalls the past
2. a note to remind a person of something not done

Also:

admonition
hint
suggestion

Duane

Well, this is becoming silly. "Recalling" the past or "reminding" something clearly refer to something the person has already been told. I'm not putting the word "reminder" in the initial set of guidelines sent to a new member. I also do professional writing and editing, if it matters. And if a client tried to do that I would wipe it out in their draft. The thesaurus ideas are not definitions. They are just words that are close or have something in common.?

J

I think I have a solution.

"Group Guidelines (sent to all new members and monthly to the group)"

That's my working title.

J

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 09:20 am, J_Catlady wrote:

clearly refer to something the person has already been told

That's your interpretation, but not necessarily the only one, since there are multiple definitions. In this part of the US, a reminder may be the first time someone has seen something, so region does play a part. I can only imagine what the definitions or understandings might be in other parts of the world.

Since we seem to be developing a way to get around the actual Subject of the email, we're free to use the one that works for us. If we can each have one that we can use for all situations, there should be no reason for Mark to change what is now done.

BTW, I would never presume to call something 'silly' just because I've never heard of it, have a different interpretation, or prefer to use other terminology.

Duane

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 10:42 am, Duane wrote:

In this part of the US, a reminder may be the first time someone has seen something, so region does play a part.

I'd never heard of that and am interested. What part of the U.S. is that?

J

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:28 pm, J_Catlady wrote:

What part of the U.S. is that?

Central TX. As luck would have it, I heard a commercial on the radio today that said, "We'd like to remind everyone of our..." and it was a place I'd never heard of.

As I've been traveling around the country the last 10 years (since retiring), I've come across several things that may not be technically correct, but are accepted usage in that area. Makes for some interesting things to ponder while driving.

Duane