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On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 10:29 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

Also, if you click on your row from the Members list in shalstest you can see the list of permissions the owner might give you.

FWIW it doesn't matter how many times I try that I cannot find a specific list of those permissions that I do and do not have anywhere on shalstest.

Are you certain that the list you mentioned appears as described? Again FWIW by looking elsewhere I find that I do have the necessary permission to edit the message footer.

Chris

Chris,

? ? ? ? ? ? ?When I go to Admin, Members, and open your profile (or mine - since we're both supposed to have "Grand Poobah" permissions) part of what I see is the following (you can't fit the entire screen, it's too long):



If you're not seeing this then you need to post a screen shot of what you are seeing when you open your own profile, as that's the list of permissions you could have (I don't have all of 'em checked, either, but have the ability to check the unchecked ones were I to choose to do so).
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? ? ?Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?~ George Santayana

Shal had some of us that didn't/don't have the 'Set Moderator Privileges' checked, as in Chris' case.? I think he may have done that intentionally, though it could have been accidental, so someone didn't kick him out of his own group. ;>)? I mentioned it to him and he changed mine to enable it.? Now I can see the list.

Duane
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 04:50 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

When I go to Admin, Members, and open your profile (or mine - since we're both supposed to have "Grand Poobah" permissions) part of what I see is the following

Brian; thanks for that, and to Duane for his Now I can see the list.

I don't think I need to post a screen shot because... when I look at myself on the group for which I am a co - owner, there is a section for "Role", which (unsurprisingly) says I am an Owner.

However, in shalstest that entry simply isn't there, and neither can I see it in (for example) Brian's equivalent entry.

So perhaps as Duane suggested it is the Set Moderator Privileges checkbox that controls it.

Now I am not going to rush and suggest that Shal changes the details of my ,oderapotr privileges, but if nothing else this suggests? that telling people to "go and look" might be a futile exercise, becuase if the box isn't checked they aren't going to find anything.

Is this something that ought to be raised on beta; there is nowhere a moderator can go to find a definitive list of what they can and cannot do if that box is not checked.

Chris

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:23 AM, Chris Jones wrote:

Is this something that ought to be raised on beta; there is nowhere a moderator can go to find a definitive list of what they can and cannot do if that box is not checked.

Yes, I think it would be worth suggesting - a place for moderators to see what privileges they have - rather than have to just try to see if it can be done.

Duane
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 05:30 PM, Duane wrote:

Yes, I think it would be worth suggesting - a place for moderators to see what privileges they have - rather than have to just try to see if it can be done.

OK; I will put something together, but not until after I have done a test or two on the group I co - own promoting my "other membership" to moderator with limited privileges with and without Set Moderator Privileges being one of them. It might provide a more complete picture of the situation as it currently exists.

I am going to be out for most of this evening (UK time!) so it is unlikely to be before tomorrow.

Chris

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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 01:30 PM, Duane wrote:

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:23 AM, Chris Jones wrote:

Is this something that ought to be raised on beta; there is nowhere a moderator can go to find a definitive list of what they can and cannot do if that box is not checked.

Yes, I think it would be worth suggesting - a place for moderators to see what privileges they have - rather than have to just try to see if it can be done.

Duane
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Agreed.

I think it might be as straight forward as having the "Moderator Permissions" section always be shown if the user has Moderator status, but in read-only mode. The same should apply on the "Subscription" page as a Moderator may not be given access to the Member list.
?
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 12:49 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

Showing that same list of checkboxes, but disabled (unchangeable), would be a way of letting moderators figure out for themselves why they can or can't do certain things in the group. I don't like mysterious (lack of) functionality in user interfaces - I'm a firm believer in de-mystifying where practical.

Agreed.

At some risk, I have split off this thread and given it a new, more relevant subject line. Those who wish to further discuss customization of message footers (as opposed to looking up Moderator privileges), please reply to the original thread.

Thanks,
Bruce
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 11:49 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

I think the only thing the moderator can't do with that permission is change someone's role to or from Owner. I think.

Nope.? I changed myself to owner (and back) and could have removed everyone else and/or deleted the group.? That's why I was thinking maybe you'd restricted it.

Duane
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 05:49 PM, Shal Farley wrote:

I'd like to see it raised again.

Right; it's been raised on beta.

I'm pretty sure I asked for it once long ago but some group owners didn't want it shown to moderators, for fear of hurt feelings or arguments ("why won't you let me xxx"); in my own view that concern is silly. Worse than silly, it reflects the kind of manager that gives their subordinates the "mushroom treatment".

The term micromanagement springs to mind, amongst other things.

Chris

On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 02:26 PM, Duane wrote:

Nope.? I changed myself to owner (and back) and could have removed everyone else and/or deleted the group

Which, to my mind, is a honkin' big security hole that Mark should patch.? Unless you are Owner you had ought not ever be able to make yourself one.? That is the one, and only, thing that I feel should be completely exclusive to the Owner role.? The Owner should be able to add another one, if desired, and probably should not be able to remove him or herself as Owner until and unless there's someone else in the group who has that role.? Ideally self-demotion should probably not be possible.? The other Owner(s) should do that when desired.
?
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 06:48 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

and probably should not be able to remove him or herself as Owner until and unless there's someone else in the group who has that role.

There is already a feature that won't allow the last owner to leave the group.? I don't see a way to force them to add another owner (although several of us highly advise having a backup) in case of an emergency.? If the last owner wants to leave the group, they can always delete it.

Duane
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On Thu, Apr 18, 2019 at 08:02 PM, Duane wrote:

If the last owner wants to leave the group, they can always delete it.

Which is something that I find highly problematic from a philosophical perspective, though I do know that the software supports it.

Though the owner of a group should have extremely broad powers, if there is years of content generated almost exclusively by members they have every bit as large a stake in a group being ongoing as someone who may have created it does.

That being said, trying to work out any sort of defined, "order of succession" is so impractical that there's no way any forums software developer could establish such.? I just hope that most group owners will have to common decency to find or have arrangements for a successor whenever one would become necessary.

As far as I'm concerned, digital or on paper, once something's "published" it's published.? You should not be easily able to unring a bell.
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? ? ?Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?~ George Santayana