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A way to pre-authorize subscription requests? #addmembers

 

We have some 40,000 theoretical members of our various Yahoo groups, accumulated over 20 years -- but many of the addresses are very old and no longer valid.
I know we could send invitations via Premium Groups.io -- however, that would increase the chance that email providers (and public and private blackhole lists) block the Groups.io IP address -- as I understand Spamhaus did three times last week.
Ideally, we'd like to send posts to each group via Yahoo with instructions on how to join the corresponding new Groups.io group. That way, Yahoo would take the hit rather than Groups.io *smile*
Is there a way to upload a list of email addresses to pre-authorize approval of subscription requests?
I went through the Help files and didn't see a way.
That would be useful for many group owners and would reduce the impact on Groups.io's spam reputation.?
Thanks, --cg
 

Curt,

I know we could send invitations via Premium Groups.io ...
Invite you can use in a Basic group. But to use Direct Add you need to pay for at least one month of Premium.

... however, that would increase the chance that email providers (and
public and private blackhole lists) block the Groups.io IP address ...
I can only think of three ways this can happen.

One would be if one or more of those addresses turn out to be spamtraps. How one of those could get onto a Y!G's member list is a mystery to me.


Another would be if a some of the recipients of the Invite (or Direct Add notice) mark that message as spam.

The third is that the receiving service notices many messages sent to invalid addresses from the same IP address, and flags the IP address. I think this is the one Mark is citing in the topic on beta:


He did not react to my comments, so I'm not sure to what extent he might agree or disagree with me.

Is there a way to upload a list of email addresses to pre-authorize
approval of subscription requests?
No.

My unease with this topic is that Invite is the means designed into Groups.io to do exactly what you're trying to do. That you and others may feel compelled to work around it strikes me as a major failing.

Were it me, I would be inclined to use the facilities as intended (Invite or Direct Add) and let Groups.io figure out how to deal with consequences, if any. That's kind of rude to members of email services that use RBLs, but my opinion is that the fault is with those services: they should not apply RBL-like rules against a known legitimate email source such as Groups.io.

I'm a little excitable on this subject because I believe that many years ago (maybe 15 years) Verizon was doing something of the sort against Yahoo Groups, causing me to miss a fraction of group messages. I quit Verizon as my ISP in part for that reason - and the fact that I could never get a straight answer out of their tech support on the subject. My attitude then (and now) is that I signed up for these messages, and if you (my ISP) can't or won't deliver them to me, then you are failing to deliver the service I'm paying for.

Shal


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Thanks, Shal, for the clear and helpful reply!

Not trying to game the system. Just wanted to be sure that I had not missed such a feature when going through the excellent Owners Manual. (I was concerned because -- when I searched on subgroups -- some of the key info turned out to be located in wiki entries rather than in the Owners Manual.)

I got the pre-authorization idea because, at one point the now-living-dead LinkedIn Groups system had pre-authorization, which worked quite nicely.

We will switch to the Premium level. First, in fairness to Mark.?

And we want subgroups.?(We have a website, so we don't need calendar, database, photos, files, or wiki. Our members are not into chat. Unlike many other groups, we've found that an archive of old posts is not very useful for us due to the continually-changing info. Polls would be useful. We have Eventbrite for donations, which works very well.)?

In short, we need an email-based, moderated discussion system with reliable email delivery.

Agree about spamtraps. Given the care our team has taken in vetting applications over the 20 years, we would only have a spamtrap if a legit account has been taken over.

Agree on people marking invitations as spam. Given the varying level of email literacy -- and that many are set to "no email" -- there will be people who do this.?

Deliverability is the Achilles heel for any email-based system.?

For example,?Gmail, marks confirmation emails from Yahoo Groups as spam -- and the spam folder is hidden. Our directions say: "If you don't see the confirmation emails within an hour, check your Spam or Trash folder. (In Gmail, click "More" in the left-hand menu to find the hidden Spam folder.)"

My bet is that, as Groups.io grows in membership and volume, Gmail will do the same with Groups.io's confirmation emails.

Thanks again,
--cg
 

Curt,

Not trying to game the system.
I didn't intend to imply that looking for a way to pre-authorize a membership request was "gaming" in the pejorative sense, merely that I think it is unfortunate that there might exist this reason to avoid using Invite or Direct Add.

Given the care our team has taken in vetting applications over the 20
years, we would only have a spamtrap if a legit account has been taken
over.
I doubt that spamtrap addresses ever come about that way.

The services that create them are specifically trying to avoid using any address that has ever had legit use. They want to be reasonably certain that anyone sending to that address must have harvested the address from their website. Or bought a list from someone who did.

And that's about the only way I can think of for one to appear in a Yahoo Group's list: some overly enthusiatic group owner attempted to grow his/her group by acquiring lists of addresses. Basically, acting like a spammer. Sounds like that would not apply to yours.

Agree on people marking invitations as spam. ... there will be
people who do this.
And a reasonable RBL operator should know this too. Not about invitations specifically, but that user errors or misjudgemnts happen. An RBL operator shouldn't be too trigger-happy with end user spam reports, even if they see a burst of them flagging messages from a given IP address.

For example, Gmail, marks confirmation emails from Yahoo Groups as
spam -- and the spam folder is hidden.
I've noticed that specifically for MODERATE notices in the last few months. Never happened to me much before, so I've been marking them Not Spam when received. I did find a way to promote my Spam folder to the main list (above the More divide), but what I should really do is set a Filter for them. But there's so little traffic in those groups that it isn't really a big deal.

My bet is that, as Groups.io grows in membership and volume, Gmail
will do the same with Groups.io's confirmation emails.
That's possible, but I'd hope unlikely.

That is, I'd hope that Groups.io mods wouldn't be flagging confirmations as spam. If Gmail sees members read and delete them normally, or reply, or click links through them, then those confirmations should gain a positive reputation in Gmail rather than a negative one.

I've been imagining that some number of Yahoo Group mods/owners may be marking the notices from Yahoo Groups as spam out of frustration: the subscription control to turn them on or off at the source is no longer available. One cannot even demote a mod or owner to stop notices that way.

Shal
"Just try to relax, it will all be over soon."
-- Verizon, and every villain of fact or fiction


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Thanks for your very helpful reply, as always, Shal. ?Sorry I wasn't clear. The problem we are having is that most Gmail users who apply to a Yahoo group by sending an email are not seeing the ?"Please confirm your request" automatic replies from Yahoo Groups. Gmail marks them all as spam -- and the spam folder in Gmail is hidden.
?
Will be Beta testing a similar join-by-email process for Groups.io with a sample of members.?
?
Our members are very reluctant to set up an additional account anywhere -- and we don't need the browser-based features of Groups.io (chat, calendar, database, photos, files, wiki, donations) anyhow.?
?
All we want for Christmas is an email-based, moderated discussion system with reliable email delivery. ?
?
--cg
---
?
<snip>
?
??> For example, Gmail, marks confirmation emails from Yahoo Groups as
?> spam -- and the spam folder is hidden.

I've noticed that specifically for MODERATE notices in the last few
months. Never happened to me much before, so I've been marking them Not
Spam when received. I did find a way to promote my Spam folder to the
main list (above the More divide), but what I should really do is set a
Filter for them. But there's so little traffic in those groups that it
isn't really a big deal.

?> My bet is that, as Groups.io grows in membership and volume, Gmail
?> will do the same with Groups.io's confirmation emails.

That's possible, but I'd hope unlikely.

That is, I'd hope that Groups.io mods wouldn't be flagging confirmations
as spam. If Gmail sees members read and delete them normally, or reply,
or click links through them, then those confirmations should gain a
positive reputation in Gmail rather than a negative one.

I've been imagining that some number of Yahoo Group mods/owners may be
marking the notices from Yahoo Groups as spam out of frustration: the
subscription control to turn them on or off at the source is no longer
available. One cannot even demote a mod or owner to stop notices that way.

Shal
"Just try to relax, it will all be over soon."
? -- Verizon, and every villain of fact or fiction


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[irrelevant signature information removed]
 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 09:24 AM, Curt Gowan wrote:
The problem we are having is that most Gmail users who apply to a Yahoo group by sending an email are not seeing the ?"Please confirm your request" automatic replies from Yahoo Groups. Gmail marks them all as spam -- and the spam folder in Gmail is hidden.
?
Will be Beta testing a similar join-by-email process for Groups.io with a sample of members.?
?
Our members are very reluctant to set up an additional account anywhere -- and we don't need the browser-based features of Groups.io (chat, calendar, database, photos, files, wiki, donations) anyhow.?
?
All we want for Christmas is an email-based, moderated discussion system with reliable email delivery
From the Groups.io Help for members:

Joining a group by email
If you have been given the subscription email address for the group, or you happen to know the group¡¯s name, you can send an empty email message to the subscription address to join the group (or request membership, if the group is restricted). The format of the subscription email address is:
?
?
(Substitute the actual group name for groupname.)
?
! Important: After you send a message to a group¡¯s subscription email address, you will receive a confirmation request message from Groups.io. You must respond to that confirmation request to complete your subscription and join the group.
?
Tip: For other email addresses you can use for actions related to your group membership, see Standard group email addresses.
?
And in the Owner's Help:
/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/managing-members/handling-members-marked-as-not-confirmed?single=true

Frances
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GMF wiki for help.?Search box at the top of each page.

Check out the?new groups.io Help Center??Use your browser to search or download?the PDF.
 

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 01:35 AM, Curt Gowan wrote:
Is there a way to upload a list of email addresses to pre-authorize approval of subscription requests?
Going back to your original question.
You said you are interested in moving to Premium.
If you do so, as Shal mentioned, you can Direct Add. It is so valuable when you have a long list, many people pay just for a month of premium so they can do it this way, instead of inviting people.

See this help page:
/helpcenter/gettingstarted/1/step-10-invite-or-add-members-to

And
/helpcenter/ownersmanual/1/managing-members/premium-and-enterprise-member-management-options?single=true

Frances

?
--
GMF wiki for help.?Search box at the top of each page.

Check out the?new groups.io Help Center??Use your browser to search or download?the PDF.
 

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:28 AM, Shal Farley wrote:


I doubt that spamtrap addresses ever come about that way.

The services that create them are specifically trying to avoid using any
address that has ever had legit use.
I'm afraid that you are too optimistic.
 

Curt,

The problem we are having is that most Gmail users who apply to a
Yahoo group by sending an email are not seeing the "Please confirm
your request" automatic replies from Yahoo Groups. Gmail marks them
all as spam -- and the spam folder in Gmail is hidden.
This can also be a problem with Groups.io's confirmation requests, to +subscribe as well as the other email commands.

I've suggested on beta that Groups.io use modern authentication techniques (similar to DMARC) to eliminate the need for a confirmation in those cases where the From address of the email command can be authenticated. But naught has come of it yet.


Our members are very reluctant to set up an additional account
anywhere ...
I don't know if you want to tell your members this, but successful use of +subscribe (or Invite or Direct Add for that matter) includes the automatic creation of an account for the member's subscribed address.

In effect is not possible to be subscribed to a Groups.io group without a Groups.io account backing the subscription.

That said, the member doesn't need to be aware of that account or interact with the web interface in any way.

If they don't then the account has no password and is used simply to hold a Time Zone & date formatting settings and a default Display Name that will be in common to all of their group subscriptions. Assuming they ever subscribe to other groups. The Default User Settings panel in the Default Sub Settings tab of your group's Settings page lets you pre-set the Time and Date stuff on behalf of your new members (those who haven't already joined another group or otherwise created a Groups.io account for their subscribed address).

... and we don't need the browser-based features of Groups.io
(chat, calendar, database, photos, files, wiki, donations) anyhow.
If a member ever wants to look onsite for older messages, or your group does start using some members-only features, a benefit of the automatic account is that they don't need to go through any Sign Up process for an account - they've already got one. They don't have to set a password or think about any account settings.

All they need to do is Log In, using either the "Email me a link to log in" or social login methods.

Shal


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¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

  1. Shal said: "This can also be a problem with Groups.io's confirmation requests" Sorry to hear that -- but not surprised.?
  2. "the member doesn't need to be aware of that account or?interact with the web interface in any way."? That's what we need. (We are also evaluating Google Groups.)
  3. Thank? you, Shal, for the usual excellent explanation of how things work.
--cg

Curt,

?> The problem we are having is that most Gmail users who apply to a
?> Yahoo group by sending an email are not seeing the? "Please confirm
?> your request" automatic replies from Yahoo Groups. Gmail marks them
?> all as spam -- and the spam folder in Gmail is hidden.

This can also be a problem with Groups.io's confirmation requests, to
+subscribe as well as the other email commands.

I've suggested on beta that Groups.io use modern authentication
techniques (similar to DMARC) to eliminate the need for a confirmation
in those cases where the From address of the email command can be
authenticated. But naught has come of it yet.

?> Our members are very reluctant to set up an additional account
?> anywhere ...

I don't know if you want to tell your members this, but successful use
of +subscribe (or Invite or Direct Add for that matter) includes the
automatic creation of an account for the member's subscribed address.

In effect is not possible to be subscribed to a Groups.io group without
a Groups.io account backing the subscription.

That said, the member doesn't need to be aware of that account or
interact with the web interface in any way.

If they don't then the account has no password and is used simply to
hold a Time Zone & date formatting settings and a default Display Name
that will be in common to all of their group subscriptions. Assuming
they ever subscribe to other groups. The Default User Settings panel in
the Default Sub Settings tab of your group's Settings page lets you
pre-set the Time and Date stuff on behalf of your new members (those who
haven't already joined another group or otherwise created a Groups.io
account for their subscribed address).

?> ... and we don't need the browser-based features of Groups.io
?> (chat, calendar, database, photos, files, wiki, donations) anyhow.

If a member ever wants to look onsite for older messages, or your group
does start using some members-only features, a benefit of the automatic
account is that they don't need to go through any Sign Up process for an
account - they've already got one. They don't have to set a password or
think about any account settings.

All they need to do is Log In, using either the "Email me a link to log
in" or social login methods.

Shal

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