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I had issue that one user sent via group message containing large number of photos attached. That was of course relayed to all member of the group.

After I reported that issue I was instructed that there is actually no way to prevent this as groups.io does not have option to reject too large messages, or too large attachments, and that I should start discussion here and i there is interest that may be included in TODO list.

So I am asking for people who had similar issue or that would like to support such request to reply and express that support.

Even plain mail servers do have limitations of size of email they receive, mail list servers should have it too.

There is an option to set automatic resizing of photos but that does not resolve problem. Resizing does not help if large number of attachments is sent. Other than that it is not good to reduce photo quality if it is not necessary. Also automatic resizing to lower resolution may render image unusable.

Pedja,

I had issue that one user sent via group message containing large
number of photos attached. That was of course relayed to all member of
the group.

After I reported that issue I was instructed that there is actually no
way to prevent this as groups.io does not have option to reject too
large messages, or too large attachments, and that I should start
discussion here and i there is interest that may be included in TODO
list.

The first question I wonder about is why you want to limit this at the group level?

Each member has a control in their subscription page (advanced section) that allows that member to set a size limit, above which attachments will be passed to him/her as links for download, rather than attached to the email message. The purpose of that control is to aid members who may have metered, slow, or otherwise limited mail access.

Having the control at the subscriber level makes sense to me, since some subscribers may have very high performance connections and they might well prefer to receive the attachments as attachments; rather than be forced to download them from the site.

But that leads to a second question. I'm not certain whether the subscriber limit applies per attachment, or to the total message size. The wording suggests that it applies per attachment; if so it wouldn't solve the problem of a multitude of moderate sized attachments.

Shal


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Mark posted this on Beta just a few minutes ago:

When You set limit on incoming mail, that means message would be bounced and sender would be informed that his message is too large (that actually happens on each classical mail server, when someone tries to send too big email).

Limiting incoming mail keeps resources for everyone, including members and groups.io.

Simply said, there is always reasonable message size that is accepted, or rephrased, there is always message size that is considered ridiculously big and unacceptable.

Each user of groups.io service should pay attention on resources he uses, whether he uses free or paid service. Free service provides quite limited space so each unnecessary big attachment is important. Those paying should especially require option to prevent someone sending ridiculously big emails and spending payed resources.

Actually, this is the first time in my quite a long history of administering mail lists that I met situation I cannot set limit size of messages coming to the list.

If we relay on outgoing limits, then that means that if user did not set limit for messages sent to him, he will suffer each time someone sends ridiculously big attachments. That requires all members of the group to manually set those limits.

And we should not forget that number of group member are not knowledgeable in mailing and mail lists, they need thing to be kept safe and simple with not too much efforts.

After all having such option does not hurt. Ones who needs it will get it. Ones who do not need it should not use it.

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73,
Pedja YT9TP

Checkout:

In your group settings, you could set the Attachments option under Message Formatting to Moderated.? Then you could see how large they are before approving them.

On my groups, I set the Default Sub Settings for attachments to 0 (all attachments are sent as links in emails.)? If someone wants to receive the actual attachments, they can change it to whatever size they're comfortable with.? That won't do anything for existing members, only new ones.? If you don't have too many existing members, you could change it for each of them in their Advanced Preferences.? Otherwise you could post instructions on your group and hopefully most would change it, if needed.

Duane
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On 22.09.2018 22:44, Duane wrote:

In your group settings, you could set the Attachments option under Message Formatting to Moderated.? Then you could see how large they are before approving them.

Moderation is not practical. It just slows down everything. We want to let people freely exchange attachments as long as attachments as those are usualz documents that are supposed to be sent to all members.

We have problems only if attachments are too large. We simply do not want members to be able to send such emails at all.

On my groups, I set the Default Sub Settings for attachments to 0 (all attachments are sent as links in emails.)? If someone wants to receive the actual attachments, they can change it to whatever size they're comfortable with.? That won't do anything for existing members, only new ones.? If you don't have too many existing members, you could change it for each of them in their Advanced Preferences.? Otherwise you could post instructions on your group and hopefully most would change it, if needed.

Well, with lists with several hundred members that is hardly solution.

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Pedja YT9TP

On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 06:18 PM, Pedja wrote:

Moderation is not practical. It just slows down everything. We want to let people freely exchange attachments as long as attachments as those are usualz documents that are supposed to be sent to all members.

This option has been requested before (see??). It hasn't been brought up in awhile, but with that massive photo attachment that Mark had to address, it seems to me that the time is ripe to revisit this. *My* main concern stems from the possibility that people will someday start posting videos. So for what it's worth, I agree with you; and if you eventually make a feature request back in beta I will certainly give it a bump.

I suggest that initially this would be set up to simply reject (send back) messages that exceed the group's limit, and that this limit be chosen from a pick list (like photo size currently is). We can certainly get more elaborate than this if we want to, but the more complicated we make it the less likely it is to be implemented. For the same reason, let's try to reach something approaching a consensus before taking this back to Mark.
?
My $0.02,
Bruce
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This message contains a 55MB attachment. I don't expect you to let it go through on moderation...but the fact remains, if this group was not moderated the message would go right on through and be forwarded to every member of the group.

Please consider this when responding to Pedja.

Bruce
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[Attachment trimmed by moderator. Please don't use GMF as a test group.]

On 23.09.2018 05:56, Bruce Bowman wrote:

I suggest that initially this would be set up to simply reject (send back) messages that exceed the group's limit, and that this limit be chosen from a pick list (like photo size currently is). We can certainly get more elaborate than this if we want to, but the more complicated we make it the less likely it is to be implemented. For the same reason, let's try to reach something approaching a consensus before taking this back to Mark.

That would be more than enough.

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73,
Pedja YT9TP

On my groups, I set the Default Sub Settings for attachments to 0 (all attachments are sent as links in emails.)? If someone wants to receive the actual attachments, they can change it to whatever size they're comfortable with.? That won't do anything for existing members, only new ones.? If you don't have too many existing members, you could change it for each of them in their Advanced Preferences.? Otherwise you could post instructions on your group and hopefully most would change it, if needed.

Does this work with members who do not have groups.io accounts? Most of the members I have are not.

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73,
Pedja YT9TP

Pedja,

When You set limit on incoming mail, that means message would be
bounced and sender would be informed that his message is too large
(that actually happens on each classical mail server, when someone
tries to send too big email).

That presumably happens with Groups.io as well, but the limit might be much larger than classical email servers, and would not be under an individual group's control.

Limiting incoming mail keeps resources for everyone, including members
and groups.io.

The need to live within a group's storage allocation is a good reason to have a threshold size limit at the group level. And in that context it probably makes more sense for it to apply to the total of the message's attachments, rather than to each attachment individually.

If we relay on outgoing limits, then that means that if user did not
set limit for messages sent to him, he will suffer each time someone
sends ridiculously big attachments.

True, but as I mentioned previously, some (or these days most) of the members might not "suffer" from large (or numerous) attachments, rather they may prefer to have them delivered rather than having to fetch them from the site.

That requires all members of the group to manually set those limits.

True again, but you can help this along by setting the default for any new members who subscribe in the future.

After all having such option does not hurt. Ones who needs it will get
it. Ones who do not need it should not use it.

Well, yes and no.

It doesn't hurt me if none of the groups that I'm in use the feature. But if I'm a member of a group that chooses to limit the attachments, and I have a sturdy email service that doesn't need such a limit, or could tolerate a much higher one, then I am hurt by not receiving the information another member had wanted to send.

Or all members are hurt by having to put up with the original member getting around the limit by breaking up the collection and sending "Part 2", "Part 3", ... messages.

I'm not saying I'm totally opposed to having such a group option. I'm just pointing out some of the downsides from the member's point of view for consideration.

Shal


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On 23.09.2018 09:17, Shal Farley wrote:

> Limiting incoming mail keeps resources for everyone, including members
> and groups.io.
The need to live within a group's storage allocation is a good reason to have a threshold size limit at the group level. And in that context it probably makes more sense for it to apply to the total of the message's attachments, rather than to each attachment individually.

Now there is just option to automatically delete old attachments to provide space for new other than if space is used stop accepting attachments at all. That might work for some daily based information.

I usually administer groups that need archive of messages and attachments to stay intact. That means archive grows up and I need way to prevent someone to fill it in with unnecessary large data.

> If we relay on outgoing limits, then that means that if user did not
> set limit for messages sent to him, he will suffer each time someone
> sends ridiculously big attachments.
True, but as I mentioned previously, some (or these days most) of the members might not "suffer" from large (or numerous) attachments, rather they may prefer to have them delivered rather than having to fetch them from the site.

Actually, if attachment is to large it should be delivered using some other, external, means, and provide link.

Email is not supposed to be used to send unsolicited large data.

> That requires all members of the group to manually set those limits.
True again, but you can help this along by setting the default for any new members who subscribe in the future.

As most groups I administer are actually transferred from many years old Yahoo groups, I have very large number of members that have wrong preset and most of them do not even have groups.io accounts, they just use email.

> After all having such option does not hurt. Ones who needs it will get
> it. Ones who do not need it should not use it.
Well, yes and no.
It doesn't hurt me if none of the groups that I'm in use the feature. But if I'm a member of a group that chooses to limit the attachments, and I have a sturdy email service that doesn't need such a limit, or could tolerate a much higher one, then I am hurt by not receiving the information another member had wanted to send.

Its not that simple.

Firstly, group owner sets the rules. Members just abide rules.

Secondly, this would not prevent anyone to send info, just prevents users to send far to large attachments. Users can always upload on on some site, and provide link. That is the whole point.

Or all members are hurt by having to put up with the original member getting around the limit by breaking up the collection and sending "Part 2", "Part 3", ... messages.

And be banned from the group first time they do that :)

I'm not saying I'm totally opposed to having such a group option. I'm just pointing out some of the downsides from the member's point of view for consideration.

That is ok, but that is what group owner has to decide. Al I asked is to provide option so we can decide.


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73,
Pedja YT9TP

Pedja,

Does this work with members who do not have groups.io accounts?

Yes, the Default Sub Settings applies to all new subscribers (members).

All subscribers have accounts, even if they've never logged in. That may seem like a subtle point, but there is at least one Account preference which is configured for them automatically by email: their account profile Display Name.

And No, unlike some other subscription options, the member can't update their Max Attachement Size without logging in. But that's a pretty trivial effort with Groups.io.

Shal


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On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 03:22 AM, Shal Farley wrote:

When You set limit on incoming mail, that means message would be
bounced and sender would be informed that his message is too large
(that actually happens on each classical mail server, when someone
tries to send too big email).

That presumably happens with Groups.io as well, but the limit might be much larger than classical email servers, and would not be under an individual group's control.

I seem to recall a discussion in beta on how big an email could be and still be remailed to subscribers (again, assuming they were set to "unlimited"). It was something like 100MB or a ridiculously high number along those lines.

As best I can tell, groups.io does nothing to throttle down how big of an attachment someone could place on a message composed using the online message editor (or uploaded to the Files area, for that matter). So we cannot hang our hat on huge messages being bounced by intervening mail servers.?

Bruce?
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Pedja,

I usually administer groups that need archive of messages and
attachments to stay intact. That means archive grows up and I need way
to prevent someone to fill it in with unnecessary large data.

Agreed. I think there needs to be a way to protect useful attachments from the auto-delete of old attachments, while still letting the clutter be auto-deleted.

Drew's idea of moving them to a permanent folder/album has been suggested before in beta and I think that's a good way to handle it.

Actually, if attachment is to large it should be delivered using some
other, external, means, and provide link.

Email is not supposed to be used to send unsolicited large data.

I do agree with this, actually.

It is why I generally have set my Yahoo Groups to "HTML - Include Attachments as links". Yes, even though that flies in the face of the argument I've made in favor of letting the member decide. But Yahoo Groups doesn't let the member decide, and it has a couple of advantages in this regard:

1) The 100 GB allocation for photos and attachments. None of my groups has yet approached this total.

2) The passed links were coded with access to a folder containing just the attachments for that message - and that link worked even for email-only members (sign in not required). Alas, the Neo redesign lost that feature along the way.

Secondly, this would not prevent anyone to send info, just prevents
users to send far to large attachments. Users can always upload on on
some site, and provide link. That is the whole point.

"On some site" - why not the group's site? That's the effect I have in Yahoo Groups, the members don't need to find, learn to use, and trust in some other site. And since most of my Y!Group members are email-only, letting them "upload" the file by email makes sense.

I know what the counter-arguments are in Groups.io. Firstly the limited storage, and secondly the lack of privileged links (though that is mitigated by the ease of logging in with Groups.io).

Shal


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On 23.09.2018 09:50, Shal Farley wrote:

And No, unlike some other subscription options, the member can't update their Max Attachement Size without logging in.

That rules out about 96% of my members, or even more.


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Pedja YT9TP

Pedja,

That rules out about 96% of my members, or even more.

Not necessarily.

On the one hand you could do it for them. Though I grant that with a large group that might be intolerably tedious, as you'd have to open each individual membership page.

On the other hand, the "Email me a link to log in" feature of Groups.io makes logging in for this purpose exceptionally simple. Click the button, enter your email address, click Send, switch to your email, open the message, click the link. You're logged in.

Nothing to set up, no password to write down or remember. Just click onto the Subscription page and change the setting. Done.

Members are often reluctant to even try logging in, especially refugees from Yahoo, but they can put that nightmare behind them. No ads, no tracking (yes, browser cookies to store their login, but not used to track them), no hassles.

Shal


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