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Judy Hall - Punch with Judy
Hello fellow moderators,
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I am considering transferring several Yahoo Groups I have set up to Groups.io
Members had to create a Yahoo email address but then add their regular email address and make it the default address.
In an automatic transfer, which email address will be the one used?? The Yahoo email address or the nominated default one?
Are there any other pitfalls I should be aware of before I commence please?
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Judy
Judy Hall
Managing Director
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Hi Judy, In an automatic transfer, which email address will be the one used? The only email address that Groups.io learns is the one listed in your group's Manage Members list. I think some of the newer members might have email addresses in the "Yahoo Profile" column as well, but it is only the email address in the "Email" column that is of interest to the transfer agent. Are there any other pitfalls I should be aware of before I commence
please? Undoubtedly. ;-) See also: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Transfer-from-Yahoo-Groups/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Welcome-Message-for-Yahoo-Group-transferIf you think you might want subgroups to your group do that research and decide before the transfer, or well after it. The first subgroup you create makes a permanent change to the format of your group's web and email addresses. So it is best to have that sorted out before so that the members don't see it as another change. Or wait until they're settled in before springing that change on them. Let the Y!Group know as far in advance as you can that you will be making the move. You don't need specifics (and maybe should avoid them) before the actual move, but it makes sense to get the idea "out there" so it won't come as a shock when you do it. Remind them a couple or three times, but know that even so there are some who won't get the message. Make a new Welcome message tailored specifically for the transfer, name it something like Transfer Welcome, and make it active immediately before giving the "Go". Then after completion make the normal Welcome message active. You can carefully craft the subject line and body of the Transfer Welcome to match the style and tone of your group, and to fit with what you've told them in advance. Decide whether or not you want to check the box for Groups.io to send its "You have been added to [groupaddress]" message at the completion of the copying. I've generally left it enabled, but some here have reported that it can spook the members, and that too many take the offered "opt out" that comes with it. Despite being all 60-ish in age, and highly varied in computer skills, my group members apparently didn't have an adverse reaction to it. Just before clicking the "Go" button, send a Special Notice to the Yahoo Group letting them know that the time has come, and that they should watch for your Welcome message from the new list (and optionally the aforementioned "You have been added" message. That (or those) messages will tell them the new web address and new posting address for the list, and they can begin posting in the new list as soon as they get it (them). Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Hi Judy, I wrote: Just before clicking the "Go" button, send a Special Notice to the
Yahoo Group letting them know that the time has come, ... Also, in my most recent go-around I exported the Y!Group's Membership List in TSV format (the group had fewer than 1000 members) and pulled that into Excel. Three I sorted by email Delivery, and used BCC in from my Gmail account to send a copy of that "time has come" message to all the members set to No Email. That might have been over the top, and a few of those messages bounced, but it wasn't that much effort and (so far) none of them have objected to receiving the off list message from me. After the transfer completes I'm considering taking the Y!Group's Bouncing list and sending them an Invitation. They won't have heard anything about the move, and they won't have been copied by the transfer agent. And indeed likely most of them are truly dead addresses that will bounce when I send the invite. But experience has shown that Y!Groups does sometimes have working addresses on the Bouncing list. Just as sometimes a dead address is not listed as bouncing - and those will immediately go bouncing in your Groups.io group. Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Judy Hall - Punch with Judy
Many thanks Sharley, this is excellent advice and I certainly do appreciate such.? Re your second email, yes, it does seem many have bounced recently in Yahoo, but I do also have a second list of all students, so I will advise them well in advance using that.? There are in excess of 2000 in one group alone but others I have are smaller. ? Judy ? ? Hi Judy, ? > In an automatic transfer, which email address will be the one used? ? The only email address that Groups.io learns is the one listed in your group's Manage Members list. I think some of the newer members might have email addresses in the "Yahoo Profile" column as well, but it is only the email address in the "Email" column that is of interest to the transfer agent. ? > Are there any other pitfalls I should be aware of before I commence? > please? ? Undoubtedly.? ;-) ? See also: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Transfer-from-Yahoo-Groups /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Welcome-Message-for-Yahoo-Group-transfer ? If you think you might want subgroups to your group do that research and decide before the transfer, or well after it. The first subgroup you create makes a permanent change to the format of your group's web and email addresses. So it is best to have that sorted out before so that the members don't see it as another change. Or wait until they're settled in before springing that change on them. ? Let the Y!Group know as far in advance as you can that you will be making the move. You don't need specifics (and maybe should avoid them) before the actual move, but it makes sense to get the idea "out there" so it won't come as a shock when you do it. Remind them a couple or three times, but know that even so there are some who won't get the message. ? Make a new Welcome message tailored specifically for the transfer, name it something like Transfer Welcome, and make it active immediately before giving the "Go". Then after completion make the normal Welcome message active. You can carefully craft the subject line and body of the Transfer Welcome to match the style and tone of your group, and to fit with what you've told them in advance. ? Decide whether or not you want to check the box for Groups.io to send its "You have been added to [groupaddress]" message at the completion of the copying. I've generally left it enabled, but some here have reported that it can spook the members, and that too many take the offered "opt out" that comes with it. Despite being all 60-ish in age, and highly varied in computer skills, my group members apparently didn't have an adverse reaction to it. ? Just before clicking the "Go" button, send a Special Notice to the Yahoo Group letting them know that the time has come, and that they should watch for your Welcome message from the new list (and optionally the aforementioned "You have been added" message. That (or those) messages will tell them the new web address and new posting address for the list, and they can begin posting in the new list as soon as they get it (them). ? Shal ? ? -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list ?
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Judy -- One of the biggest pitfalls we encountered were Yahoo group members who were set to "no email." We had a difficult time notifying them of the migration, and despite our best efforts some of them were blind-sided. Since there's no reliable way to contact them via the Yahoo group, you may have to capture their email address and send them a note manually. To mitigate this, I wanted to put up a new banner (i.e.: "cover image") that notifies anyone visiting the Yahoo group of our move, giving the new groups.io URL. Yahoo has repeatedly frustrated my efforts to do this.
You can also plan to have a number of members start to bounce emails after the transfer completes, due either to dead email addresses among your Yahoo records or recipient mail servers that for some reason think mail coming from groups.io as spam. The latter can be a particular problem as some will be automatically unsubbed from the group and have to be re-added. Anyone who had to "white list" Yahoo to get their group mail will likely have to do so with groups.io as well. Hotmail in particular seems troublesome in this regard.
That said, this can also be useful to eliminate some of the deadwood users that seem to accumulate over time.
In our two migrations, members, files and messages seemed to transfer well. Photos are more troublesome and you can expect to lose a third to a half of them...for no other reason than the Yahoo servers are balky. Be advised the files attachments to messages -- photos or otherwise -- are NOT migrated. This includes any photos appearing in the "Photostream."
Finally, be advised that many groups are abandoning Yahoo right now and it may take awhile (a week or more) for the transfer agent to get around to you. The inability to provide a firm date to your members as to when the migration will actually take place can also be mildly frustrating.
That's my experience. Hope this helps!
Bruce
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The “No Email” delivery is a hazard most Yahoo Groups has when it comes to
contacting the entire list membership. No Email means just that. The person who
chooses no “No Email” wants only one way contact with the List. A move like the
one from Yahoo Groups to Groups.io creates a vacuum that cannot be avoided when
it comes to informing the Yahoo List subscribers of the of the transfer to
Groups.io.
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I am one of two co-owners of a Yahoo Group that has existed for almost 20
years. The subscriber list is over 12,000. Of that list about 58%, from a
membership sampling of 1000 subscribers, have chosen the “No Email” delivery
method. We cannot contact that 58% membership directly.
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I am one of those leading this 12,000 member list in the move to Groups.io.
We, the co-owners, have elected to eliminate from the new list at groups.io the
“No Email” mail delivery option.
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Here is what I expect to happen when the transfer finally takes
place.
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1) All of the members who have dead email address (Bouncing) will not be
transferred thus lowering the number of members at the new location. How many
the dead email list members there are is unknown. I can say from a sampling of
the bouncing members that the number is greater than 1000.
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2) All of the “No Email” subscribers who did not have a bouncing/dead email
address will be converted to “Special Notice” status. This will allow us to at
least contact those members in the future who we could not contact on the Yahoo
Group list in the past.
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3) I have been told, and I have not yet been able to confirm this but
during the transfer all those members who do not already have a Groups.io
account will be sent a notice on how to join Groups.io. Those members who
already have a Groups.io account will not receive this how to join groups.io
email.
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4) If the above item #3 takes place then I expect to see some of those that
were converted from “No Email” to “Special Notice” bouncing.
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5) If the above item #3 does not take place then I expect to see some of
those “Special Notice” subscribers bouncing after I send a “Special Notice” to
the entire membership announcing that the transfer from Yahoo Groups to
Groups.io is complete and that the Yahoo Group activity has been
terminated.
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I did transfer one of my smaller lists, starting subscribers was 227. I did
see the elimination of the bouncing email subscribers. I did see the conversion
of “No Email” to “Special Notice”. I also saw about a 20% of the membership
bouncing and almost all of them had previously been subscribers having the “No
Email” deliver status.
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How the subscriber list will look after the transfer takes place and how
many bouncing emails the list will receive will be interesting to say the
least.
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In the end the I hope to have a more defined and dedicated group of
subscribers.
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Al
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Judy Hall - Punch with Judy
Thank you Bruce, this is indeed very good advice, though not all wonderful to look forward to.? Hadn’t realised that everything would not be transferred over.? In the Interim, does that mean whilst waiting that there is no active group postings etc?? When completed, is the Yahoo Group no longer in existence? Because I have a separate email list of all students, separate to the Yahoo Group list of members, after I advise them of my intentions to move the group, I have already conducted a poll, do I have to advise them to make sure the link address is in their approved listing, ie white listed? Again, I appreciate your past experience advice. ? Judy ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Bowman
Sent: Monday, 26 February 2018 3:26 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Transfer Group from Yahoo ? Judy -- One of the biggest pitfalls we encountered were Yahoo group members who were set to "no email." We had a difficult time notifying them of the migration, and despite our best efforts some of them were blind-sided. Since there's no reliable way to contact them via the Yahoo group, you may have to capture their email address and send them a note manually. To mitigate this, I wanted to put up a new banner (i.e.: "cover image") that notifies anyone visiting the Yahoo group of our move, giving the new groups.io URL. Yahoo has repeatedly frustrated my efforts to do this.
You can also plan to have a number of members start to bounce emails after the transfer completes, due either to dead email addresses among your Yahoo records or recipient mail servers that for some reason think mail coming from groups.io as spam. The latter can be a particular problem as some will be automatically unsubbed from the group and have to be re-added. Anyone who had to "white list" Yahoo to get their group mail will likely have to do so with groups.io as well. Hotmail in particular seems troublesome in this regard.
That said, this can also be useful to eliminate some of the deadwood users that seem to accumulate over time.
In our two migrations, members, files and messages seemed to transfer well. Photos are more troublesome and you can expect to lose a third to a half of them...for no other reason than the Yahoo servers are balky. Be advised the files attachments to messages -- photos or otherwise -- are NOT migrated. This includes any photos appearing in the "Photostream."
Finally, be advised that many groups are abandoning Yahoo right now and it may take awhile (a week or more) for the transfer agent to get around to you. The inability to provide a firm date to your members as to when the migration will actually take place can also be mildly frustrating.
That's my experience. Hope this helps!
Bruce
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Hello Judy,
The Yahoo Group remains as is unless you delete the group, or in some way restrict.? I know in my group posting to the Yahoo Group has been disabled.? As well if anyone tries to join the Yahoo Group they are referred to Groups.io.
Thank you Bruce, this is indeed very good advice, though not all wonderful to look forward to.? Hadn’t realised that everything would not be transferred over.? In the Interim, does that mean whilst waiting that there is no active group postings etc?? When completed, is the Yahoo Group no longer in existence?
Because I have a separate email list of all students, separate to the Yahoo Group list of members, after I advise them of my intentions to move the group, I have already conducted a poll, do I have to advise them to make sure the link address is in their approved listing, ie white listed?
Again, I appreciate your past experience advice.
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Judy
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On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 01:05 pm, Judy Hall - Punch with Judy wrote:
Thank you Bruce, this is indeed very good advice, though not all wonderful to look forward to.? Hadn’t realised that everything would not be transferred over.? In the Interim, does that mean whilst waiting that there is no active group postings etc?? When completed, is the Yahoo Group no longer in existence?
No matter what you do, it's possible that some messages will get lost in the shuffle. Personally, I allowed users to continue to post to Yahoo while we waited for transfer. The transfer agent will not shut down your Yahoo group...everything will still be there. What I did, as soon as the transfer completed, I put the Yahoo group on "moderated" status.?This served as a gentle reminder that the group was now defunct and people needed to go to the new group. Then I took the list of un-transferred stuff that the agent sent me and tried to download those materials myself from Yahoo. Success with this was marginal -- if the agent had trouble getting it, odds are that you will, too.
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Because I have a separate email list of all students, separate to the Yahoo Group list of members, after I advise them of my intentions to move the group, I have already conducted a poll, do I have to advise them to make sure the link address is in their approved listing, ie white listed?
Again, I appreciate your past experience advice.
Difficulties with bouncing members and spam filters varies a great deal depending on each person's ISP, email client, and how computer--savvy they are. I think your best bet is to warn people about these possibilities, hope for the best, and help clean up the mess afterward.? Good luck! Bruce
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Like you, Al, our migration and the inability to adequately notify people about it has left a bad taste in my mouth for Yahoo's "no email" option. I don't plan to abuse the "special notices" privilege but we have chosen to eliminate "no email" from our groups.io sites for exactly the same reason.
Bruce
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When my YG was active I would periodically review the Membership List, and anyone that had selected No Email was changed to Special Notice. I was glad to see Groups.io gave the owner the option, in whether No Email was allowed or not. ? Don ?
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From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Bruce Bowman
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 1:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [GMF] Transfer Group from Yahoo ? Like you, Al, our migration and the inability to adequately notify people about it has left a bad taste in my mouth for Yahoo's "no email" option. I don't plan to abuse the "special notices" privilege but we have chosen to eliminate "no email" from our groups.io sites for exactly the same reason.
Bruce
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Judy Hall - Punch with Judy
Thank you again Bruce, not too sure re your last comment though, interesting to look forward to J? Must also commend you for prompt replies. Judy
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On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 01:05 pm, Judy Hall - Punch with Judy wrote: Thank you Bruce, this is indeed very good advice, though not all wonderful to look forward to.? Hadn’t realised that everything would not be transferred over.? In the Interim, does that mean whilst waiting that there is no active group postings etc?? When completed, is the Yahoo Group no longer in existence? No matter what you do, it's possible that some messages will get lost in the shuffle. Personally, I allowed users to continue to post to Yahoo while we waited for transfer.
The transfer agent will not shut down your Yahoo group...everything will still be there. What I did, as soon as the transfer completed, I put the Yahoo group on "moderated" status.?This served as a gentle reminder that the group was now defunct and people needed to go to the new group. Then I took the list of un-transferred stuff that the agent sent me and tried to download those materials myself from Yahoo. Success with this was marginal -- if the agent had trouble getting it, odds are that you will, too. ? Because I have a separate email list of all students, separate to the Yahoo Group list of members, after I advise them of my intentions to move the group, I have already conducted a poll, do I have to advise them to make sure the link address is in their approved listing, ie white listed? Again, I appreciate your past experience advice. Difficulties with bouncing members and spam filters varies a great deal depending on each person's ISP, email client, and how computer--savvy they are. I think your best bet is to warn people about these possibilities, hope for the best, and help clean up the mess afterward.?
Good luck!
Bruce ?
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Judy Hall - Punch with Judy
Thank you Douglas.? All this input to a newbie to this group is indeed heartening that I am making the correct decision.? I have several groups.
Judy
Hello Judy,
The Yahoo Group remains as is unless you delete the group, or in some way restrict.? I know in my group posting to the Yahoo Group has been disabled.? As well if anyone tries to join the Yahoo Group they are referred to Groups.io.
?[excess quote trimmed by moderator]
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Bruce, Judy, You can also plan to have a number of members start to bounce emails
after the transfer completes, due either to dead email addresses among
your Yahoo records or recipient mail servers that for some reason
think mail coming from groups.io as spam. If a message bounces it is not delivered - not even to spam. Or you could say it the other way: a message that was delivered to spam (or trash or anywhere) did not bounce - it was accepted. But Bruce's point remains: some email services may outright reject messages from Groups.io because that service believes Groups.io to have a bad reputation, and not because the address is actually "no such user" or other error. And other members may use services (or settings within their service) which attempt to filter out spam by doing a "human test" - they hold your message and send you back some instructions to prove you're a human. These services won't work with Groups.io unless the member does something to allow group messages to be delivered. Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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Al, We, the co-owners, have elected to eliminate from the new
list at groups.io the “No Email” mail delivery option. This is one of the oldest tug-of-wars I recall from the Yahoo Group mod groups - some moderators being outraged that members would choose No Email, and some members being outraged that a group moderator would dare to change their setting. My personal philosophy is to leave those members to their own devices. They chose that setting and thereby chose the responsibility to check the group web pages (Conversations) periodically. Or not. Their problem, not mine. And the truth is that members who really don't want even Special Notices can always put a filter in their email service. So overriding their choice may be a Pyrrhic victory. As a footnote to that, in recent years No Email was a recommended work-around for the frequent failures of the Unsubscribe mechanism. It was the best some members could do when they were done with the group. These members may account for a fair fraction of those that immediately unsubscribe from the Groups.io group after the transfer. The "You were added" message from the transfer agent, and the "Welcome" notice from the group moderators may be the first these members have heard from the group in years. 4) If the above item #3 takes place then I expect to see some of those
that were converted from “No Email” to “Special Notice” bouncing. Whether or not that is true, probably. Those two other messages I mentioned are sent to all copied member addresses: One is from Groups.io with the subject line "You have been added to GroupEmailAddress" - that one tells them the posting email address and the home page web address for the group, and provides an unsubscribe link. This is sent if you do not uncheck the box on the transfer form. The other is the active Welcome notice, from the group's Member Notices page. The group owners/mods author that message. 5) If the above item #3 does not take place then I expect to see some
of those “Special Notice” subscribers bouncing after I send a “Special
Notice” to the entire membership announcing that the transfer from
Yahoo Groups to Groups.io is complete and that the Yahoo Group
activity has been terminated. You don't have to make a Special Notice of this. You can create a Welcome notice that is tailored specifically to carry the information you wish to convey to the copied members, and make it "Active". It will go out to them when the copy completes. Then afterward make your normal Welcome notice active. Unlike a Special Notice, Member Notices are sent regardless of the members email delivery choice. So this would reach them even if you didn't disable No Email. I also saw about a 20% of the membership bouncing and almost all of
them had previously been subscribers having the “No Email” deliver
status. Probably more of the members who couldn't unsubscribe due to Yahoo glitches. Shal -- Help: /static/helpMore Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wikiEven More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list
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"As a footnote to that, in recent years No Email was a recommended work-around for the frequent failures of the Unsubscribe mechanism. It was the best some members could do when they were done with the group."
Good idea.
Don
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Shal,
How many groups at groups.io have a subscriber base over 5,000 members? I belong to over 20 loosely related Yahoo Groups. I am the owner or moderator 8 of those related groups. Only the 1 that is currently in the transfer queue has over 3,500 members, 6 more are between 1000 and 3,500 members with the remaining 13 under 1,000 members.
I had my first experience with groups.io on 4 February when I started to research groups.io as an alternative to Yahoo groups. I read for three days everything I could about groups.io. The two features that struck my interest were was the ability to eliminate the "No Email" delivery and the ability to download the entire subscriber base. I did not know until the 24 February a message was sent from groups.io titled "You have been added to the GroupEmailAddress". I have not yet received such a message. This message would not have identified those with no longer an interest in our group but it would have at least the identification of those subscribers who no longer have a valid email address.
Note here when I did a test download of the membership data base I found that the header giving the number code for the type of email delivery did not match the identifier for some of the members. The range of the status is 0-3. I had no 3's as that is for no email. I did have a fair number of 4's. When I check those with a 4 against the same user information I had from Yahoo I found a 4 was really a subscriber who had elected "Digest" delivery.
In the almost 20 years our group has been associated with Yahoo we have sent out only three "Special Notices". I have been a moderator or one of the co-owners of the Yahoo Group in question for over 15 years.
We choose to eliminate the "No Email" not to antagonize those that only want the one way communication with the list but rather to cleanup our subscriber base. We have an message ready that we will be transmitting to all of our subscribers, under "Special Notice" that the transfer is complete. We have included that we no longer will accept the "No Email" delivery option and that those that had chosen the "No Email" delivery where converted to "Special Notice" delivery. We have included instructions on how to unsubscribe from the new group if they no longer desire to be a member for any personal reason.
We have no idea how many of our previous subscribers we will loose because they are on a bouncing email list. We have no idea how many of our "No Email' subscribers on the we will loose because they no longer have chosen "No Email" and no longer have a valid email address. We have no idea how many members will choose to unsubscribe because they have no longer have an interest in what our group has to offer. We just do not know.
The elimination of the "No Email" delivery may seem harsh but it has become a necessary means to rid the our group of those that no longer can be reached or no longer have an interest in our group activity.
Al
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Really the notice goes to everyone regardless of email setting? That's great! We are discussing what to do with the many "no email" members we have. Also I saw that many of them end up bouncing, another good way to "clean house".?
This is a YG question - but is there a way to set up an auto reply ("We have moved, come visit us at...") so we don't have to keep checking the YG page and sending back this response to those who continue to post to YG? (based on past changes, this will be a big issue for us unfortunately). We of course will be sending out messages about the move, before and after, but seems many people don't read... We don't really want to disallow posting, at least for awhile. We have many older members to whom the group is an important way to feel connected to our community, but they seem to struggle with details.
Mindy
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I set my old group to "Moderated" after our transfer.? By doing that, I don't have to check YG at all.? If anyone tries to post or to subscribe, I will get a message that my approval is required. That way I can communicate directly with the sender.
Cacky
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On 2/26/2018 1:00 PM, Group Moderator via Groups.Io wrote: Really the notice goes to everyone regardless of email setting? That's great! We are discussing what to do with the many "no email" members we have. Also I saw that many of them end up bouncing, another good way to "clean house".
This is a YG question - but is there a way to set up an auto reply ("We have moved, come visit us at...") so we don't have to keep checking the YG page and sending back this response to those who continue to post to YG? (based on past changes, this will be a big issue for us unfortunately). We of course will be sending out messages about the move, before and after, but seems many people don't read... We don't really want to disallow posting, at least for awhile. We have many older members to whom the group is an important way to feel connected to our community, but they seem to struggle with details.
Mindy
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Yes that's what I meant, deal with each email on its own. But based on how many people STILL send posts to "mygroup-owner@..." we know there will be many many posts still sent to the YG group. If there was a way to set up an auto-response - like a vacation response - will save us alot of time. And hair-pulling ;) Any way to do that?
Mindy
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Shal Farley
Bruce
Douglas Swearingen
Don Grass