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On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:50 AM, Charlie Behnken wrote:

does anyone know of a way to add boilerplate language that would be included in every Calendar notice that has an RSVP?

For example - "By accepting this invitation you acknowledge that you have read the terms and conditions (a link) and agree to the organizations standard liability waiver (link)". ?

Charlie --?If you want language of this kind to appear in each #cal-invite you have two options:

• place it at the bottom of the event Description, or
• word it as a question that each person has to respond to in order to complete the RSVP ("Additional Information Requested from Attendees").

In either case, you have to add this text manually each time...there is no "boilerplate" feature. And of course, if your group is on the Basic plan, the RSVP feature is unavailable.

See?/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/working-with-calendars/using-the-rsvp-feature-in-premium-and?for details.

Regards,
Bruce?

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Yes not to receive a copy of my own posts drives me nuts too

A few years ago I had a tweak for gmail that circumvented that but after an update I gave up and simply bcc'd a copy of every post to myself, thankfully Thunderbird does that automatically

I have the "own copies" ticked

If I bcc various groups at the same time I get a copy of each one

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Hi Shal

In Recent Bounces there is just one on the 25th March

But I hadn't considered that the sender had sent them to more than one group at the same time which I suspect is what happened now I think about it, the two I had a pending message notification for are timed exactly the same, but each only show the one group address it was sent to, so the sender may have Bcc'd to various groups

Out of curiosity I checked all mail but didn't expect to find them, and didn't

Its the first time I have come across this but it may well have happened before without my noticing

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

Nivard,

We all know gmail doesn't receive (or keep) a copy of your own posts,
but this is the first time it may have only received one post out of
three that were similar but to three different groups and find it hard
to believe it would obstruct two posts to two different groups whilst
receiving one from a third group

Yup. That's the same mechanism at work.

It appears to be based solely on the Message-ID contained in the message header, and whether that ID already appears in your account (in any folder, not just the Inbox).

The Message-ID is (generally) established at the origination of the message. If it is you sending the message then you already have a copy in your Sent folder. If it is someone else, sent through multiple groups, then the first arrival wins.

Groups.io has a special feature for Gmail users: an option (default on) to replace the Message-ID when sending your own message back to you. This is the "I always want copies of my own emails" checkbox in the Preferences page of your Account.

This feature is the only reason I'm willing to use a Gmail address with Groups.io. I've long refused to do so with Yahoo Groups because Y!G lacks such a feature and it drives me nuts not to see my own message return.

Shal


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Nivard,

To the best of my knowledge so far I have always received all posts to
my own groups and those I subscribe to, I cannot be 100% certain but
looking down the posted messages I do appear to have had them all

In your Groups.io account, open the Recent Bounces page. That will show you any recent messages - across all your group memberships - that couldn't be delivered to your email address.

That won't show you if your email service actually put the messages in your Inbox, it can only tell you when the message couldn't be delivered.

A couple of minutes later I received the same post from the same
poster to a group I am just a subscriber to, wondering what had
happened to the ones I let through I checked to find they hit both
groups almost the same minute 16:22

If this is a message that the sender posted by email, as a single email addressed to all three groups, then what Larry said applies. The three copies of the message would have the same Message-ID when received for you by Gmail, and Gmail will show you only one of them.

I have still not received my copies of them at 18:20
...
I have checked that they are not in my spam folder in web mail

If this is a case of Gmail's identical message filter in operation then you may (or may not) see them in your "All Mail" folder. That's generally in the More drop-down in the folder/tag list in the left column of Gmail's web interface. You might also need to turn off conversation mode. Pardon my vagueness but it has been years since I've given up trying to overcome this attribute of Gmail.

Shal


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Hi Duane

I should have been clearer, the posts are genuine from a genuine poster, I have no problem seeing them as that, I wouldn't have let them through had there been a doubt

When I checked earlier the most recent successful delivery was a previous post on both groups (before 16:22)

But checking now, one says that message was delivered at 16:22 and the other says most recent was a reply to that message that I did receive at 17:31

We all know gmail doesn't receive (or keep) a copy of your own posts, but this is the first time it may have only received one post out of three that were similar but to three different groups and find it hard to believe it would obstruct two posts to two different groups whilst receiving one from a third group

Its not as if they were three posts all the same to the same group from the same person

Mystifying so far

Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:21 PM, Nivard Ovington wrote:

Any ideas?

Quite possibly a spammer/phisher looking for information.? I've seen a few of those lately.? I look for 'generic' comments, such as "interesting group" or "Glad to be here."? Not conclusive, so extended moderation may be a good idea.

Not sure why they wouldn't have shown up in your email.? If your email provider has a list of known spammers, it may have been tossed in the bit bucket.? Check your email delivery history for that group to see if there are any clues.

Duane
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Donald,

With DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and
Conformance),

Actually, DMARC relates only to how a receiving service should treat messages with a forged "From" address (a "spoofed" address). It does not specify anything about subsequent processing of messages deemed to be spam by the receiving service or its users.

if your ISP marks a GIO post as spam and then either they auto-delete
it or the user reads the post in the spam folder, doesn't move it to
the inbox, and he deletes it in the spam folder, it gets counted as
marking it as spam. The email provider then sends a message to GIO to
unsubscribe the user.

This is the FBL (feedback loop) mechanism. It has evolved over the last several years and is becoming more standardized.
(email)

The basic intent is to deal with situations where an email user loses interest in (or never had an interest in) some list, and the user either marks the messages as spam, or fails to proactively move the list's messages out of their spam folder. The assumption then is that this user is uninterested in this list, and should be unsubscribed from it to reduce the number of undesired messages being transferred.

The failing of course is that many email users are unaware of their spam folder, or know about it but neglect to check it, yet expect to reliably receive messages from the list. Such expectations are explicitly shattered by the FBL mechanism. The member may be upset by this, but the alternative is for the member to continue to wonder why they are seeing only some of the list's messages in their Inbox.

Shal


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To the best of my knowledge so far I have always received all posts to my own groups and those I subscribe to, I cannot be 100% certain but looking down the posted messages I do appear to have had them all

Until this afternoon

I had two pending posts by the same person, same content, this was their first posts so were moderated , I checked them and let them through unmoderating the poster in the process time 16:21 2nd May

A couple of minutes later I received the same post from the same poster to a group I am just a subscriber to, wondering what had happened to the ones I let through I checked to find they hit both groups almost the same minute 16:22

I have still not received my copies of them at 18:20

I thought they may be held up but just now I received a reply to one of them so they did get posted

I have checked that they are not in my spam folder in web mail

Any ideas?


--
Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 02:51 PM, Ullman Garrett wrote:

My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?

My mail service provider played this trick on me a few weeks ago. :( Not only did it not tell me (or anyone else AFAIK) but it made it as hard as it could to find a workaround.

In "your" case it is possible that the problem stems from additions to the list of providers with which Groups.io operates FBLs. Mark announced this on beta, specifically . The GMF wiki on the subject (here) was updated accordingly.

It there any recognisable pattern amongst those of your members who are being ejected, i.e. commonality of mail provider?

Chris

On Sat, 02 May 2020 06:57:59 -0700, "Bruce Bowman"
<bruce.bowman@...> wrote:

If any spam filtering is going on, it's your own provider doing it.

At least some ISPs and webmail providers have a process where you can
change settings for the spam filter.

With Roadrunner email, for example, I can turn the filter off
completely or have it mark suspected spam but still send it to my
inbox. I chose the latter.

I wasn't even aware they were filtering spam until email I was
expecting never arrived.

Worse yet, many providers will auto-delete email in your spam filter
after a set period of time, like 30 days. They expect you to review
the spam folder. The problem is (and it was so with my situation) that
they don't always communicate this to the user, and the spam folder
may be on their web site somewhere that you have no idea where to look
for it.

With DMARC (Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting and
Conformance), if your ISP marks a GIO post as spam and then either
they auto-delete it or the user reads the post in the spam folder,
doesn't move it to the inbox, and he deletes it in the spam folder, it
gets counted as marking it as spam. The email provider then sends a
message to GIO to unsubscribe the user.

We had no choice in the matter when this was implemented by the big
email providers. It was forced upon us (without notice in most cases).
GIO must unsubscribe the user or face the consequence of being
blacklisted for all messages sent by them.

Unfortunately, the user then blames GIO for this, totally unaware that
this isn't their fault at all. DMARC is here to stay. I tried to find
an article about how the marking a message as spam triggers an
unsubscribe request other than the one in the GIO help pages.

/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam


Donald



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Hi,

does anyone know of a way to add boilerplate language that would be included in every Calendar notice that has an RSVP?

For example - "By accepting this invitation you acknowledge that you have read the terms and conditions (a link) and agree to the organizations standard liability waiver (link)". ?

The pandemic has organizers scared to hold events without some type of liability waiver from the attendees.

Thanks,
Charles

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 09:51 AM, Ullman Garrett wrote:

My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?

Groups.io does not attempt to filter spam -- too many false positives. If any spam filtering is going on, it's your own provider doing it.?
?
As to whether such changes are reported to you, that varies widely, depending on the provider. Most seem to feel such details in your mail delivery aren't something that you need to know.

I hope this helps, but it probably doesn't.

Bruce

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In our group we are getting several subscribers per day who are being taken off groups. IO for marking messages as spam. It started a few days ago. I notified all of our members three days ago to let them know this was going on and it will soon be over.
My question, is there a way to know when spam filters are updated ie is there public notice?
Ullmang

Kathleen,

My email to me at that address has not appeared in the mindspring
webmail account, nor has it appeared in my Apple mail account which
picks up the mindspring email.

Basically, what Duane said: there's a known deliverability problem to members using MindSpring. And a few others.

ok Shal, let's do some. problem-solving.

Groups.io does give you some information useful for that purpose, but not access to the server logs themselves.

Digging into the details: there are two sides to the delivery of a message: Groups.io attempting delivery, and MindSpring (for example) the service of the intended recipient. During the delivery transaction MindSpring either accepts the message (a 2xy response code), defers the message (a 4xy response code), or rejects the message (a 5xy response code).

If you look in the Email Delivery History tab of your Subscription page on this (or any other) group you'll find three panels: Most Recent Successful Delivery, Most Recent Unsuccessful Attempt, and Recent Bounces. These report to you messages from this group that have been met with each of those three responses from Mindspring. The Bounce panel (rejections) is different in that it may show more than one instance.

In the first case (success) the message should promptly appear in your Inbox or possibly in your Spam folder, or somewhere else if you have filter rules set up in your email service.

Either of the other two though are what Groups.io tracks and, if unusually frequent with a given service, tries to remediate. So far, as means of remediation, Mark has reported changing the number of messages delivered per connection, the number of simultaneous connections to a given service, and the rate at which connections are attempted to a given service.

In looking at your own delivery history, messages that arrive promptly were in the first category, those that arrive late were in the second, and those that never arrive were in the third. That last may include some messages that were initially deferred, but were ultimately deferred so many times that Groups.io gave up trying again later.

So now you too can play armchair email diagnostician.

Shal



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Michael,

Is there a way to turn off the annoying 'prefixes' to Calendar
reminders, other than moderating #cal hashtags or all messages?

Not on /reminders/, but there is the "Send Notice To Group When Event Happens" checkbox. It doesn't have such a prefix. But it also can't be scheduled in advance of the event. Perfect for my use case, maybe not for yours.

You may have noticed that GMF has been sending one of each for the last several months. That resulted from my attempt to switch from using a reminder to using the notice (the notice checkbox didn't exist when I first set up this event, nor did the subject prefix). Alas there was a bug at that time and deleting the Reminder did not stop it from being sent. That bug has since been fixed, but I wasn't able get Mark's attention long enough to evict the "ghost" reminder from wherever it is lodged.

I wish I had faith that deleting the event would kill the ghost, but I don't.

Shal


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Chris,

I think that /might/ be called splitting hairs! :) What matters is the
outcome, not the precise means of achieving it.

It is a hair worth splitting when dealing with members who are reluctant to "set up" an account: there is no further "set up" needed. The outcome is that they can vote in the poll - all they need to do is log in.

In that regard they're in no different a situation than any member who has used the site extensively, but logged out their session. Or switched to a different device that isn't logged in. The sole difference is that they don't have a password and so must use an email or social method to log in.

I only jump into this because the reluctance to "set up" an account is a real phenomena. People have a lot of preconceptions, very few of which match reality.

No surprise that this is particularly true of members that experienced the crazy rigamarole of setting up a Yahoo account to access Yahoo Groups. But even people without that scar sometimes don't want to be bothered to create and keep track of yet another password, or a bunch of security questions, or a bunch of profile info. Or maybe later, but not right now. None of that is required here, but often that's what they expect based on other web sites they've used.

Shal


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On Fri, May 1, 2020 at 07:36 PM, Duane wrote:

Have them mark it as NOT SPAM so their service can learn to accept it

When my Service Provider changed their email system (somehow!) a few weeks ago I immediately had this problem with the one group on which I rely on emails for Notifications. Prior to the change it was possible to turn the SP's Spam Box off completely, but it transpired that that was no longer an option. Trawling around the various so - called help pages I also found that the SP didn't tpovide a whitelist service, so that option was out. Marking messages as Not Spam seemed to be completely ineffective.

What I did find was a suggestion that if an address is in the user's Contact List (using the SP's web UI; a list in an email client won't work) then anything from it won't be treated as Spam.

So a suggested solution is that you enter [email protected] into your SP's mail interface Contact List; it certainly seems to work well in my case. And yes it's a bit of a chore if you have several groups sending mail to you, but at least it's a solution.?

Of sorts...

Chris