Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Xaun Loc, Unfortunately there are a some spam filters that don't pass the email
along to the addressee (even to a spam folder) but simply kill the
message. This is especially common if the user's address involves any
sort of forwarding. Also, in the case of a confirmation message if it is forwarded then it likely would only work if the user used the link in the message rather than replying (the reply would come from the wrong address). Another slightly different problem area can come up when their incoming
and outgoing email addresses are not exactly the same. I have seen this
come up with some University faculty email systems where the published
email address works great for email going to the person, but their
outgoing emails will actually have a slightly different domain name.
They will receive the confirmation email but when they try to send email
to a group it bounces because the address on the emails they send is not
exactly the same as the subscribed address. Both Y!Groups and Groups.io have a mechanism to deal with this situation. In the case of Groups.io the mismatch is automatically detected and the "Email Alias" option in the user's profile set to allow the alternate email posting address. Neither of these apply to J's would-be member though, as she never received the confirmation emails at all. One difficulty with "intelligent savvy people" is that they tend to
assume that all parts of a system work the way the user manual or help
files say the system is supposed to work. They also tend to be terrible
about checking things that they 'know' are correct. Mayhaps. One of the things that can happen in cases like J's is that the would-be member typos their email address when entering it into the web interface. Then of course the confirmation emails go nowhere, or at least elsewhere. This can be very frustrating if the typo is subtle: one can look at it over and over and not see the typo. However this too seems to be ruled out in J's case because Mark reports that the confirmation emails were delivered successfully (absent the coincidence that the typo'd address actually exists), and J attests to having double-checked the email address to be sure it was the same. We'll know more when the would-be member does (or does not!) begin receiving group messages. Shal
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Re: Calendar Events out by 1 hour
Just to close-out this query, Mark applied a fix and the problem that some were seeing is now resolved.
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Jennifer, I believe that some/many internet service providers provide another
unseen level of spam filtering -- messages that are rejected by the
ISP's computers and never even make into our spam boxes. Yes, and there are three variations on this. 1) Explicit rejection (bounce) of the message. In this case the sending service may have logged the rejection response and could in principle inform the user about that. With your email service you see these either as "Mailer Daemon" notices from your own email service, or as delayed rejection notices from the rejecting service; with Groups.io you might see it in your (or the member's) Email Delivery History page. 2) Graylisting. In this case the message is rejected the first time it is sent, and given a "temporary error" (4xy) response code. The sending service is expected to try again and then the message will be accepted. This becomes evident as a delay in message delivery, with the delay depending on the retry behavior of the sending service. Often a retry isn't attempted for several hours, or in some cases (Yahoo Groups) a couple days. This is a type of spam filter because spammers used to use simplified servers that wouldn't bother with retries. 3) Blackhole (or "dropped"). In this case the message is accepted from the sending service, but then simply discarded without notice to anyone. This form of filter is particularly pernicious because it is impossible to diagnose without the receiving email service's cooperation: they'd have to search their internal logs for evidence of the message's fate. J's incident suggests the use of a Blackhole because Mark reported that the confirmation emails were accepted by the email service (that rules out 1 and 2). The remaining possibility is that (despite all assurances) the messages were delivered to the user, but somehow not seen or recognized. So, if that is happening, sending repeated copies of confirmation emails
from Groups.io won't work. That depends on whether the same treatment is given consistently. Some email services have been known to trigger (1) or (2) behavior based on "realtime" blacklists (RBLs) - lists which try to track the IP addresses used by spammers. I've suspected some services of triggering (3) behavior based on blacklists, but have never convinced one of them to confirm that. Often IP addresses expire from these lists in hours or days, so a later retry could could succeed. One possibility is for the moderator to send an email via their personal
email account -- with the same text content. Of course, that requires
the moderator to have access to the text of the confirmation email,
including links, etc. That isn't really a possibility. The confirmation request is coded for a particular email address, the moderator would have no way of capturing (or creating) one encoded for the member's email address. If that were possible it would be a security hole that would allow a spammer to bypass the confirmation mechanism. Shal
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 09:58 pm, Xaun Loc wrote: One difficulty with "intelligent savvy people" is that they tend to assume that all parts of a system work the way the user manual or help files say the system is supposed to work. They also tend to be terrible about checking things that they 'know' are correct. That's true. However, I didn't mean that she's a particularly sophisticated user. I was preemptively responding to anticipated comments about her being some dumb user who doesn't know how to check her spam.:-) J?
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
I would bet that at least 90% of the time the confirmation messages are being eaten by some spam filter along the way. Unfortunately there are a some spam filters that don't pass the email along to the addressee (even to a spam folder) but simply kill the message. This is especially common if the user's address involves any sort of forwarding.
Another slightly different problem area can come up when their incoming and outgoing email addresses are not exactly the same. I have seen this come up with some University faculty email systems where the published email address works great for email going to the person, but their outgoing emails will actually have a slightly different domain name. They will receive the confirmation email but when they try to send email to a group it bounces because the address on the emails they send is not exactly the same as the subscribed address. Sometimes it can even make a difference whether they are using an email client or using the university's webmail system.
One difficulty with "intelligent savvy people" is that they tend to assume that all parts of a system work the way the user manual or help files say the system is supposed to work. They also tend to be terrible about checking things that they 'know' are correct.
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-----Original Message----- On Sep 25, 2016, at 1:16 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
About once a month we get a new member who can't figure out how to confirm. Can't find the email, has no idea what I'm talking about when I contact them, I'm re-sending and re-sending the confirmation email, but no dice. These are invariably intelligent, savvy people and I always have the feeling the system is failing, not them. I have one tonight whom I've sent a confirmation email at least three times. She can't find it. I've asked her to check her spam, and still nothing.
Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Wondering whether I should report a kind of strange, irreproducible bug.
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
The member swears up and down she's checked her spam file again and again. Yet Mark says the emails were "successfully delivered." So maybe you're right about the extra level. J
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 03:42 pm, Jennifer Christian wrote: One possibility is for the moderator to send an email via their personal
email account -- with the same text content. Of course, that requires the
moderator to have access to the text of the confirmation email, including
links, etc. And the links would have to go to the Groups.io god. ?I have the text at this point, having run tests on my test group and with a virgin (unregistered) email address. But yes, it's those links....
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
I believe that some/many internet service providers provide another unseen
level of spam filtering -- messages that are rejected by the ISP's computers
and never even make into our spam boxes. So, if that is happening,
sending repeated copies of confirmation emails from Groups.io won't work.
One possibility is for the moderator to send an email via their personal
email account -- with the same text content. Of course, that requires the
moderator to have access to the text of the confirmation email, including
links, etc.
Jennifer Christian
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-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto: [email protected]] On Behalf Of Sharon Villines Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2016 1:24 PM To: [email protected]Subject: Re: [GMF] every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm There are many messages like this that the moderator never sees. A screen shot in the support files would be helpful. But overall, this is an excellent list. Sharon. On Sep 25, 2016, at 1:16 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
About once a month we get a new member who can't figure out how to confirm. Can't find the email, has no idea what I'm talking about when I contact them, I'm re-sending and re-sending the confirmation email, but no dice. These are invariably intelligent, savvy people and I always have the feeling the system is failing, not them. I have one tonight whom I've sent a confirmation email at least three times. She can't find it. I've asked her to check her spam, and still nothing.
Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Wondering whether I should
report a kind of strange, irreproducible bug.
J
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Sharon, There are many messages like this that the moderator never sees. A
screen shot in the support files would be helpful. Cataloging them in GMF's Wiki would probably be helpful as well. I know many of them have been reported from various people's experiments over time, but having them all in one place might make them easier to find. All we need is a volunteer with the gumption to do it. Shal
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
J, Also, can someone tell me the subject of the confirmation email, so I
can tell this person what to look for in her inbox or spam? It is
"confirm your membership," or something? The last one I've received, back in February, was: Subject: Confirm Your Groups.io Account From: "Groups.io" < [email protected]> This was a test case where I was joining through the web interface. FWIW Joining by email +subscribe command gives a different message: Subject: Confirm Your Groups.io Subscription From: "Groups.io" < [email protected]> In the above, "shalstest" is the group name, and "..." was a sequence of digits (a unique identifier probably). Shal
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Three days and five re-sent confirmation emails later, the member still can't get in. She is intelligent. She's checked spam, she's checked her email forwarding, she's checked lower down in her messages (because re-sent emails with the same title will thread and their message bodies will appear only as ellipses) - nothing. I've been in constant email communication with her offlist and she has not given up. She keeps thanking me for helping her and apologizing for being a bother. I keep apologizing to HER for the apparent "glitch" in Groups.io that's causing this. It's her first experience with Groups.io and it is not a good one. And this is not the first case my group has had of this...
J
On Sun, Sep 25, 2016 at 12:22 PM, J_Olivia Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote: Sharon, I don't understand what you're responding to. Thanks. J
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
There are many messages like this that the moderator never sees. A screen shot in the support files would be helpful.
But overall, this is an excellent list.
Sharon.
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On Sep 25, 2016, at 1:16 AM, J_Catlady <j.olivia.catlady@...> wrote:
About once a month we get a new member who can't figure out how to confirm. Can't find the email, has no idea what I'm talking about when I contact them, I'm re-sending and re-sending the confirmation email, but no dice. These are invariably intelligent, savvy people and I always have the feeling the system is failing, not them. I have one tonight whom I've sent a confirmation email at least three times. She can't find it. I've asked her to check her spam, and still nothing.
Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Wondering whether I should report a kind of strange, irreproducible bug.
J
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Re: every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Also: What is the sequence of events when a member is approved but hasn't yet confirmed? Do they receive the welcome message immediately after approval, or do they receive it only after they confirm? This is crucial since the welcome email contains links to content in the group, and if they receive it before they confirm, I believe they will not be able to access the links. J
("[mod note: sorry, my pending processor doesn't always include look-ahead]") But the threads can still be merged.
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every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
Also, can someone tell me the subject of the confirmation email, so I can tell this person what to look for in her inbox or spam? It is "confirm your membership," or something? Thanks. J you can merge this with my prior thread - my message had not yet come through due to moderation?
[mod note: sorry, my pending processor doesn't always include look-ahead]
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every so often, get a member who absolutely for the life of them can't confirm
About once a month we get a new member who can't figure out how to confirm. Can't find the email, has no idea what I'm talking about when I contact them, I'm re-sending and re-sending the confirmation email, but no dice. These are invariably intelligent, savvy people and I always have the feeling the system is failing, not them. I have one tonight whom I've sent a confirmation email at least three times. She can't find it. I've asked her to check her spam, and still nothing. Has anyone else experienced this phenomenon? Wondering whether I should report a kind of strange, irreproducible bug. J
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Re: Unsubscribe to this newsletter
It solves the problem for you individually -- but we cannot expect any
significant number of group subscribers to bother doing that.? Most users
never check their spam folder at all, or check it only when looking for a
"missing" piece of mail such as a website access confirmation email.
?
Automatic unsubscribes are a problem which occurs at the individual level
and pretty much have to be solved at the individual level -- which generally
means checking the spam folder frequently, marking Not Spam mail properly, and
occasionally yelling at the service provider's tech support when the service
keeps incorrectly flagging the same kind of emails as spam.
?
BUT those automatic unsubscribes are not the only problem related to ISP
and other mail service "spam filters" -- most of those filters are configured so
they are supposed to "learn" how to better filter spam.? The main parts of
the learning system, of course, are the emails that get flagged by the user as
spam that the filter missed and the emails that get flagged as Not Spam the the
filter originally blocked.? But, yes, simply leaving an email in the spam
folder, and especially deleting an email in the spam folder without marking it
as Not Spam generally count as confirming the email as spam which reinforces the
filter's value for whichever rule was applied.? So when users don't check
their spam folders regularly and don't remember that the MUST flag valid emails
as Not Spam, instead of getting better those spam filters will continue to get
worse.? This much is a User Education issue that group owners can try to
work on.
?
Unfortunately there are other aspects of the problem.? No matter how
easy we make it for users to unsubscribe themselves, we all know how often we
get the idiot who posts to the group asking to be unsubscribed because he or she
is simply too stupid to scroll to the bottom of the email to find the
unsubscribe link.? Guess what -- those same stupid people frequently ask
others how to stop getting mail from groups they no longer want.? One
common piece of advice is that they can get rid of group emails by marking the
email as spam!? I have even seen this advice offered by an ISP's tech
support!!
?
And, it gets worse still.? The spam filters do not work on an
individual level.? You can personally keep telling your ISP's spam filters
that emails with [GMF] in the subject line are Not Spam, but that is just one
vote for Not Spam. That one vote gets weighed against however many Spam votes
the system sees from those users who don't check their spam folders, or who read
and delete emails in the spam folder without marking them Not Spam.? Now I
would hope that IN THIS PARTICULAR GROUP we shouldn't have too much of a problem
with ignorant users, but can we all say the same thing about the users in all
the groups we manage?
?
Those same ISP spam filters also are designed to generalize.? Let's
say that the filter starts out with a rule that the phrase "male enhancement" is
a strong indicator that the message is spam.? After a few thousand of those
emails have been filtered as spam and only 1 has ever been tagged as Not Spam,
the filter starts to notice what domain names these emails come from (even
though the sender domain is spoofed) and what IP address they arrived from. Both
those factors get added to the filter -- initially they are added to the filter
with a low weight, but as the spam emails continue to pile up, the weight of
those other factors increases until magically emails from that domain name or
that IP address will be filtered as spam regardless of the content.
?
As an example of this kind of filtering, a few years ago Yahoo was
filtering ALL mail from AOL.COM as spam - a problem which lasted about a
week.?? A few months later, Yahoo's wonderful filters found another
domain name that they filtered as spam regardless of email content.? Anyone
want to guess what domain name Yahoo!Mail was blocking?? If you picked
yahoogroups.com you win first prize!? Yes, Yahoo!Mail once was blocking all
email coming from yahoogroups.com as being spam due to the number of hits that
domain name had in the spam filters.? AT&T and AOL each also filtered
ALL yahoogroups.com emails at various times in the past.
?
?
However, onerous as it may be, checking that spam message in the browser
regularly does solve that problem.? I simply mark the appropriate posts
"OK" and aol moves them to my inbox, at which point my email client downloads
them.? If I choose to delete them at that point, there would be no
problem.
Cacky
?
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Re: what gets logged for an approved but NC member who tries to post?
Shal, Right. I didn't see that. It was far down in the list. I agree - those dropdowns are really awkward.? J
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Re: what gets logged for an approved but NC member who tries to post?
J, When a non-subscriber tries to post to a group, it gets logged as
"non-subscriber message." But does anyone know what happens after an
approved, but still NC, member tries to post? I believe that would be "Message from not confirmed sub". Buried in the list of "Message from" selections in the Actions drop-list. Which reminds me of your complaint they are not alphabetized. Well, these almost are but "Non-subscriber message" is peculiar for not being one of the "Message from" items. Another thing that bugs me about this filtering mechanism is that there's no way to filter on the OR of these perhaps-too-specific items. That is, it would often be handy to get a result which is _any_ kind of incoming message bounce, rather than having to select each choice in turn and keep notes on the results. I'm not sure what the right UI implementation is. I've seen drop-lists where you can checkmark the items to select more than one of them; but those have seemed clumsy. A clearer approach might be to have "Multiple" be a choice in the list, and its effect is to open a list of check boxes, with the filter being an OR of the checked actions. Shal
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Re: Unsubscribe to this newsletter
I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.? Maybe I've not
explained what I'm doing very clearly.? I open my aol (verizon)
account in a browser every day, and keep it open all day.? I check
it from time to time to catch any incoming email that has been
classified as spam.? I move the non-spam to my Inbox by checking
the OK box in the spam folder.? I delete the rest of whatever is
in the spam folder.? Even though aol thought something was spam to
begin with, I have corrected it before it would have taken any
action.? I'm sure aol does not take action, even on a real spam,
until it has been left unchecked for 2 or 3 days.? I really don't
know how long, since I keep my spam folder cleaned out, either by
deleting what is spam or moving the non-spam to the inbox by
clicking the OK box in the spam folder.? Does that make any more
sense? I have not had any difficulty receiving mail that has come
to me through groups.io, and actually I don't think aol has ever
classified a groups.io mail as spam.? The one that typically gets
classified as spam is the -owner@... that I still have
on a couple of groups.? It's important that I receive the requests
to join that are sent to that address, but it also receives a load
of spam, so aol just assumes it's all spam.? I'm constantly
catching those that I want and marking them as ok.
Cacky
On 9/24/2016 4:47 PM, J_Catlady wrote:
What if you don't get to doing that before aol starts its
thing?
[excess quotes trimmed by moderator]
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what gets logged for an approved but NC member who tries to post?
When a non-subscriber tries to post to a group, it gets logged as "non-subscriber message." But does anyone know what happens after an approved, but still NC, member tries to post? Of course the message would be rejected, but does the attempt get logged? ?I think it should, because it bears on whether, and how often, a moderator should continue to re-send confirmation messages. For example, if an approved but NC member has tried to post and had posts rejected, the moderator should know that so that they can attempt to reach that member (earlier than, say, an NC member who has NOT tried to post) and get them to confirm. If this is not logged, I will suggest it on beta but thought I'd ask here first. J
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Shal Farley
Jennifer Christian