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Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

This has been an issue on Yahoo groups, with some individuals getting all upset when someone ask them for their email address, they were not aware that if one used an email client everyone's email address was totally exposed.

Privacy is only there in the mind of some on the Internet, the reality is if you use the Internet someone knows who you are and where you have been unless you take actions to maintain privacy beyond the average users knowledge.

On 11/20/2017 11:37 AM, Shal Farley wrote:
Richard,

> It seems to me that groups.io has a rather inconsistent story
> regarding privacy of email addresses.
That's true, the inconsistencies and the feature itself are largely borrowed from Yahoo Groups tradition.

> It appears to be the case that if you receive posts via email, you can
> often?/always? see the poster's email address, regardless of whether
> you have access to the member list.
Always.
A fundamental decision in the design of the email support is how much modification to do inside message bodies. For email message delivery the answer has always been "as little as possible". I think at present it is limited to appending the group footer and (at the receiving member's option) replacing attachments with links to stored copies of the attachments.
I think this is a good answer, on both efficiency and integrity grounds.
Display of messages on site, and the inclusion of messages in Digests, have further processing. Material quoted from prior messages, if detected, is hidden on site under an ellipsis button and is not included in Digests. Email addresses in the message body, excluding those in the groups.io domain (and maybe some few others) are truncated ("fig-leafed") when shown to members, but not when shown to moderators/owners.

> If you then reply to a post and quote the original message, that
> quotation will contain whatever your email client put in the 'on such
> and such a date so and so wrote' bit,
As it turns out, email services vary considerably in how they preface such quotes in replies. Recognizing them is an on-going update item for Groups.io.

> and this seems to depend on whether the sender has defined a display
> name in their profile.
Email services are idiosyncratic about this. But generally yes, many will include only the "Display Name" portion of the From address, if there is one; some will include both Display Name and email address, a few will include only the email address.

> If there is no display name, groups.io shows the whole email address,
> not truncated in the same way as it does for replies via the website.
In email, and when viewed by moderators/owners on site, whatever the sender's service put into the message is shown. For members viewing on site Groups.io truncates the address (again with the exception of groups.io addresses).

> It seems to me that a possible improvement would be for groups.io to
> assume a display name of the first part of the email address for
> posters who haven't explicitly defined a display name.
Again, if you're talking about the preface to a quote, that comes from the sending member's email service.
Otherwise that's pretty much what Groups.io already does: the truncated address ("user@...") is shown in place of the Display Name.

> Not sure what can be done about the full email address not being
> visible in the email client, whilst staying compliant with the
> standards.
Yes, it would be possible. As you noted, Yahoo Groups' "hide" feature is one example implementation; a feature which is available to members of GMF's sister Yahoo! group.
Several approaches to this have been discussed in beta@, but nothing has come of it so far. If you're curious, I think "anonymous" would be a good search word, as in groups with anonymous members.
Shal
--
Cecil - k5nwa

Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

Richard,

It seems to me that groups.io has a rather inconsistent story
regarding privacy of email addresses.
That's true, the inconsistencies and the feature itself are largely borrowed from Yahoo Groups tradition.

It appears to be the case that if you receive posts via email, you can
often?/always? see the poster's email address, regardless of whether
you have access to the member list.
Always.

A fundamental decision in the design of the email support is how much modification to do inside message bodies. For email message delivery the answer has always been "as little as possible". I think at present it is limited to appending the group footer and (at the receiving member's option) replacing attachments with links to stored copies of the attachments.

I think this is a good answer, on both efficiency and integrity grounds.

Display of messages on site, and the inclusion of messages in Digests, have further processing. Material quoted from prior messages, if detected, is hidden on site under an ellipsis button and is not included in Digests. Email addresses in the message body, excluding those in the groups.io domain (and maybe some few others) are truncated ("fig-leafed") when shown to members, but not when shown to moderators/owners.

If you then reply to a post and quote the original message, that
quotation will contain whatever your email client put in the 'on such
and such a date so and so wrote' bit,
As it turns out, email services vary considerably in how they preface such quotes in replies. Recognizing them is an on-going update item for Groups.io.

and this seems to depend on whether the sender has defined a display
name in their profile.
Email services are idiosyncratic about this. But generally yes, many will include only the "Display Name" portion of the From address, if there is one; some will include both Display Name and email address, a few will include only the email address.

If there is no display name, groups.io shows the whole email address,
not truncated in the same way as it does for replies via the website.
In email, and when viewed by moderators/owners on site, whatever the sender's service put into the message is shown. For members viewing on site Groups.io truncates the address (again with the exception of groups.io addresses).

It seems to me that a possible improvement would be for groups.io to
assume a display name of the first part of the email address for
posters who haven't explicitly defined a display name.
Again, if you're talking about the preface to a quote, that comes from the sending member's email service.

Otherwise that's pretty much what Groups.io already does: the truncated address ("user@...") is shown in place of the Display Name.

Not sure what can be done about the full email address not being
visible in the email client, whilst staying compliant with the
standards.
Yes, it would be possible. As you noted, Yahoo Groups' "hide" feature is one example implementation; a feature which is available to members of GMF's sister Yahoo! group.

Several approaches to this have been discussed in beta@, but nothing has come of it so far. If you're curious, I think "anonymous" would be a good search word, as in groups with anonymous members.

Shal
Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

I don't mind the email address b eing in the client. This is why I moved my list to groups.io. Many of us reply off list, or need to so we need to see the whole email address. All 300 of us have ben on all 4 iterations of this list I took over in 2005.

Take care

On Nov 20, 2017, at 4:37 AM, Richard L King <rlking@...> wrote:

Shal

If the Members list is not shown to Members then email
addresses in the body of messages show just the user name (left of the "@"
sign) when viewed on the group's Messages pages.
It seems to me that groups.io has a rather inconsistent story regarding
privacy of email addresses.

It appears to be the case that if you receive posts via email, you can
often?/always? see the poster's email address, regardless of whether you
have access to the member list.

If you then reply to a post and quote the original message, that quotation
will contain whatever your email client put in the 'on such and such a date
so and so wrote' bit, and this seems to depend on whether the sender has
defined a display name in their profile. If there is no display name,
groups.io shows the whole email address, not truncated in the same way as
it does for replies via the website.

It seems to me that a possible improvement would be for groups.io to
assume a display name of the first part of the email address for posters
who haven't explicitly defined a display name.

Not sure what can be done about the full email address not being visible in
the email client, whilst staying compliant with the standards. But it must
be possible to only show the defined or inferred display name: after all
Yahoo Groups (whose name I hoped I would never have to utter again!...)
managed to send out emails for members who had no email address defined
within the group.

Richard
Re: Member list vs. member directory

J_Catlady
 

Speaking of the truncation (aka fig-leafing), Mark has promised repeatedly that this will be made optional per group (I don't want it in my group). We still don't know when this is going to happen, but every time I've asked, Mark has said he just hasn't gotten around to it yet. It's on the Todo list.
--
J
Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

Shal

If the Members list is not shown to Members then email
addresses in the body of messages show just the user name (left of the "@"
sign) when viewed on the group's Messages pages.
It seems to me that groups.io has a rather inconsistent story regarding
privacy of email addresses.

It appears to be the case that if you receive posts via email, you can
often?/always? see the poster's email address, regardless of whether you
have access to the member list.

If you then reply to a post and quote the original message, that quotation
will contain whatever your email client put in the 'on such and such a date
so and so wrote' bit, and this seems to depend on whether the sender has
defined a display name in their profile. If there is no display name,
groups.io shows the whole email address, not truncated in the same way as
it does for replies via the website.

It seems to me that a possible improvement would be for groups.io to
assume a display name of the first part of the email address for posters
who haven't explicitly defined a display name.

Not sure what can be done about the full email address not being visible in
the email client, whilst staying compliant with the standards. But it must
be possible to only show the defined or inferred display name: after all
Yahoo Groups (whose name I hoped I would never have to utter again!...)
managed to send out emails for members who had no email address defined
within the group.

Richard
Re: Transferring Links from Yahoo Group

 

Dotty,

When a Yahoo Groups is transferred to Groups.io, where will the Links
be placed on the .io group?
They go into a table in the Database section.

Shal
Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

Andre,

What is the difference,
As Duane mentioned, the Member list includes member's subscription information, and in particular shows their email addresses.

I suspect most groups would restrict this list to moderators for privacy reasons. But some groups with restricted membership might allow members to know each other's email addresses. My classmate groups operate this way: we grew up together and in many cases know each other's physical addresses and phone numbers - so showing each other's email addresses is no big deal.

Note that as a side-effect, if the Members List is shown to members, then email addresses in the group's Messages archive are not truncated ("fig-leafed"). If the Members list is not shown to Members then email addresses in the body of messages show just the user name (left of the "@" sign) when viewed on the group's Messages pages.

what is the directory for?
The directory contains links to member's group profile. For a member to appear in the directory that member must choose to reveal some profile information.

Again, the group admins must decide as a policy for the group whether to allow members to access this directory. In this case, even if the Directory is hidden, a link to a member's group profile may be present anywhere the member has posted to the group - if the member has made profile information available.

Each member's Subscription page has a "Group Profile" tab where the member can edit what information is shown to other members. By default each member's profile starts as a copy of their Account profile, but the member can customize the information shown in each group of which they are a member.

Shal


On 11/19/2017 9:53 AM, Andre Polykanine wrote:
Hi everyone,
When setting up group permissions, there are two items: member list
and member directory.
What is the difference, what is the directory for?
Thanks!
Re: Member list vs. member directory

 

The Member List has email addresses and some other info. I reserve that one for moderators. The Directory only has their user name and their avatar.

Duane
Re: Groups.io site updates #changelog

J_Catlady
 

The clarification was about the fact that there needs to be a space before a hashtag if it is not at the beginning of the subject line (there were some people in another group who didn't realize that and were having trouble with using hashtags in general). What you're reporting seems to be a separate bug or change.?
--
J
Transferring Links from Yahoo Group

 

When a Yahoo Groups is transferred to Groups.io, where will the Links be placed on the .io group?? I see that Links are mentioned in the list of data that will be copied, but no Links page option in .io.? I found this question has been asked before, but not a conclusive answer.

Thanks,
Dotty
Member list vs. member directory

Andre Polykanine
 

Hi everyone,
When setting up group permissions, there are two items: member list
and member directory.
What is the difference, what is the directory for?
Thanks!


--
With best regards from Ukraine,
Andre
Skype: menelion_elensule
Twitter: @m_elensule; Facebook: menelion
Re: Groups.io site updates #changelog

 

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 10:40 pm, Shal Farley wrote:


CHANGE: Clarification in the help on hashtag behavior.
This still doesn't work quite right. According to the help page, any hashtags in the middle should be duplicated at the end of the subject line. Instead they are moved to the end. In the example shown, "Seeking #advice for a #rosebush with blackened leaves", it becomes "Seeking for a with blackened leaves #advice #rosebush", instead of "Seeking #advice for a #rosebush with blackened leaves #advice #rosebush" as shown. I've notified Support and Mark said the moving action is what is intended. Unless the behavior is changed, you'll need to be careful of hashtag placement.

Duane
Groups.io site updates #changelog

 

Hi all,

The last two week's change logs:



Feel free to reply to this topic if you'd like to comment on the
changes. Or better yet, if you expect a lot of discussion start a new
topic (or rejoin an existing one) about a specific change.


* Changes to /leave link behavior:
If you click on a leave link and are logged in as someone else,
you are logged out.
This behavior was subsequently changed:
* When visiting a /leave link for someone else, display an error
message and an option to log out.
I believe the latter behavior is superior, as most people in this circumstance will be logged in to their own (and only) account - logging them out unexpectedly would be a rude surprise.

If you are logged out, you are not then logged in as the person
the /leave link belongs to.
One thing I haven't tested yet is what you can do at this point. I'm presuming (hoping) that you can unsubscribe even though not logged in. The details on this one are important for email-only subscribers. There's a rather long thread on this in beta@, if you want the details.



* Gathering SPF responses on inbound messages for testing/possible
future use.
Yay! Hopefully this is a prelude to eliminating the need to confirm email commands, in many (most) cases.



* Search results have the topics actions dropdown when viewing
collapsed topics.
Yay! Another step toward consistency in messages list presentation & controls.


Comments about these others are also welcome:

CHANGE: Clarification in the help on hashtag behavior.
CHANGE: Changes to /leave link behavior:
If you are logged in as the person the /leave link belongs to, you are still logged in.
I re-ordered the buttons for leaving, putting the 'Leave Group' button last.
The email address of the account is now displayed on the page.
BUGFIX: The Vote link in poll messages didn't work for some people without permission to add a new poll.
CHANGE: Much more accurate count of total search results when using the 'collapse topics' option.
BUGFIX: When trying to view a deleted event, now show a banner explaining it's been deleted.
BUGFIX: Couldn't approve a pending message from someone who has already unsubscribed and when the group is set to moderate new users.
CHANGE: Column hiding when viewing a table is remembered as you page through the table. Also the buttons look nicer.
BUGFIX: The /updategroup and /deletegroup API end points returned invalid_permissions when they should not.
BUGFIX: We were not processing some bounce emails that were marked as being autoresponder messages.
CHANGE: Changed format of ICS files to try to fix erroneous timezone problem with a couple of calendar programs.
CHANGE: When creating the #guidelines hashtag when sending the group guidelines, set Mods Only Post and Mods Only Reply to true, and if the guidelines should be sent special, set the tag to Special as well.
CHANGE: Wording changes to help and group notices.
INTERNAL: Using the search cluster for viewing messages by month/year to take load off main db.
BUGFIX: Search results were displayed incorrectly when summaries had HTML unsafe characters.
BUGFIX: Fixed email subscription process for some Enterprise sub groups.
SYSADMIN: Changed the messages and activities tables autovaccuum scale factor to 0.00.
NEW: Added 'Member Page' option to 'More' menu and dropdown when viewing messages.
BUGFIX: Fixed subjects for new member notices to match new terminology.
BUGFIX: For member notices with HTML links that have text that is the same as the link itself, don't display it double when converting it to plain text.
NEW: Generate name tags for people who have RSVPed Yes to an event.


Please call out any you find significant.

Shal
Re: Special hashtag useage

 

Thanks, I didn't get around to removing the message or nullifying it after finding the answer.
The answer was on Beta buried in a 38 message topic.
--
Bob Bellizzi

The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation
Re: Special hashtag useage

J_Catlady
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Yes, that¡¯s what the ¡®special¡¯ feature does on a hashtag. All replies go out as special notices.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 18, 2017, at 2:18 PM, Bob Bellizzi <cdfexec@...> wrote:

Can a moderator/owner, reply to one of their own Special Notices and utilize the "special" hashtag so that this particular reply goes out as a special notice?
We're running a Giving Tuesday fundraiser and I would like to be able to initially send a special notice about a challenge grant and then periodically update the results with a reply that also gets Special Notice action

--
Bob Bellizzi

The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation
Special hashtag useage

 

Can a moderator/owner, reply to one of their own Special Notices and utilize the "special" hashtag so that this particular reply goes out as a special notice?
We're running a Giving Tuesday fundraiser and I would like to be able to initially send a special notice about a challenge grant and then periodically update the results with a reply that also gets Special Notice action

--
Bob Bellizzi

The Corneal Dystrophy Foundation
Re: receive only email addresses under email integrations. what is a good use case for this?

 

Yeah exactly. I actually use ifttt to post to a email list I'm on every time I post some news article or blog post on my website. It works uite well actually. king of doing the same thing. I'm sure I can come up with a way to try this.

Take care all.

On Nov 17, 2017, at 2:11 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Sarah,

I'm thinking of using this for one of my groups to let a podcast I
run post as long as i have special tags in said podcast.
Interesting.

But I don't know of a way to set things up so that podcast postings lacking certain tags would be automatically ignored. Unless you can do it with something like IFTTT.


Question two. Would list members still be able to reply to the
message on the list, ...
Yes, provided that the group is set to have replies sent to the group. I'm not sure what would happen if Reply To was set to "Sender". Also assuming you didn't use a Hashtag to restrict or moderate replies by members.

Shal
Re: receive only email addresses under email integrations. what is a good use case for this?

 

Sarah,

I'm thinking of using this for one of my groups to let a podcast I
run post as long as i have special tags in said podcast.
Interesting.

But I don't know of a way to set things up so that podcast postings lacking certain tags would be automatically ignored. Unless you can do it with something like IFTTT.


Question two. Would list members still be able to reply to the
message on the list, ...
Yes, provided that the group is set to have replies sent to the group. I'm not sure what would happen if Reply To was set to "Sender". Also assuming you didn't use a Hashtag to restrict or moderate replies by members.

Shal
Re: receive only email addresses under email integrations. what is a good use case for this?

 


Hmmm...I created an test email integration called test. I was expecting the email address to be [email protected]

But in reality is a long unwieldy string of numbers:? test <[email protected]>

That really does limit its usefulness...

Kevin Conod
kdconod@...
Re: Yahoo vs Groups.io comparison chart

 

Steph,

...WRITE A COMPARISON OF YOUR OWN ...
If anyone does, I'd be happy to host it in GMF's Wiki.

mY SUGGESTION WOULD BE ...
As an aside, my suggestion would be to change your Advanced Key Settings to select "Press the SHIFT key" under "To turn off Caps Lock". I find that much more sensible (having learned to type on an actual typewriter) and much more convenient -- I don't have to remember or look to see if the Caps Lock is on or not; just starting a sentence normally (Shift key on first char of first word) turns off the caps lock.

For some reason Microsoft makes it insanely hard to find the option, rather than putting under "Typing" in the Devices settings.

(scroll down to ruggb's reply).

Shal
Also a user of the US Dvorak keyboard layout
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