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Re: How best to educate about the 'Removed for SPAM' problem
On 2018/09/28 05:58 AM, Michael Pavan wrote:
The responsibility to educate individual email List users should notI think the best way to "educate" users about a problem such as this one is not to try to teach them about the problem beforehand or to try to give a long explanation afterwards, but to lead them in the most appropriate course of action at the time that the problem occurs. This means that what happens when the user (victim) gets unsubscribed must help the user to get resubscribed as painlessly as possible. In other words, what happens to the victim must be fair and the victim must be treated with compassion. When the victim gets unsubscribed, he should be informed in a compassionate (possibly apologetic) way, and told how to undo the bad thing that had happened to him. To my mind, the current wording of the notification sent by Groups.io to victims is more suitable for users who would find it merely curious that they have been unsubscribed (instead of upsetting), as if it is just an odd thing that had happened and for which the rational explanation is interesting to know. The notification sent to group moderators does not need to exude the same level of commisseration, but I personally find the current wording more suited for someone who has always been aware of the problem and needs just a gentle reminder, as opposed to a warning that something bad had just happened that requires the moderator's urgent attention. I say in my Welcome Message to new subscribers (although this isYes, users tend to forget information that they were told at the start of their participation, if it isn't something they encounter often during their participation. This is why I send a biweekly FAQ in all of my Yahoogroup groups, but even that may not be sufficient: if a message repeats itself too often, you tend to ignore it eventually. Groups.io couldNo solution that involves users having to actively patrol their mailboxes will be successful. Users just want to participate. Samuel (newbie jumping into the fray here but I think I have read enough about the issue to be allowed to speak) |
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Re: How best to educate about the 'Removed for SPAM' problem
Michael, Rather than the current ¡®If you don¡¯t understand what is not clear to you, tough luck¡¯ policy ... That is not a Groups.io policy, of course, just your interpretation of my comments. I suspect Mark would never have put it quite that bluntly. In fact Mark has solicited and taken advice in improving the messages sent to moderators and members when a member is "removed for spam". I don't happen to know if anyone has helped him craft the brief Help page section. ... why not try something to do a better of education. I'm never against better documentation. This hidden knowledge strategy has not succeeded.
There should be an effective way to ¡®show horses where the water is', What do you suggest? Instructions are emailed to the member upon
unsubscription, and to the moderators of the group. It is also on the
Help page. The complaint has been raised that the members often don't receive that instruction; if that's true then we need a mechanism other than email to get it to them. Perhaps it should be presented in an ¡®opt-out form¡¯ such as ¡°Terms of Use agreements¡± are. I'm leery of any extra steps that complicate the sign up process. There had been no "you must check this box to agree to our terms" in Groups.io's sign-up flow. That may have changed recently with the GDPR requirements, I'm not sure. And then we have the many email-only members who never visit the site to educate as well. > If you mean GMF's wiki page Removed for Marking Messages as spam, help us improve it. GMF is not in a position to "provide to" (in an active sense) anyone except our members; but we do not "hide from" anyone - our messages and Wiki are public for all to read. We can aspire to provide information which Groups.io might take up in official communications and documentation; and have achieved that in the past. > Good idea, for all help pages actually. But that takes time and effort. Posts here are fine. Ultimately a copy (or a link to the discussion here) will need to be posted to the beta group to get it in front of Groups.io (Mark). There's also a place for suggested help page text here: the Help Page Mock-up: That can be used as a staging area to submit any proposed help page text; some of the current official help page originated there. Looks like ours needs an update from the current official Help page though to get this effort started -- Mark's gotten ahead of me. Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Re: How best to educate about the 'Removed for SPAM' problem
This problem affects all email List users, because if not solved, Groups.io becomes less effective when subscribers/members unexpectedly are unsubscribed.I see the problem as being one of insufficient and ineffective education - that¡¯s why I believe it should be done by Groups.io itself, to be done well for a change. From a ruthless point of view, perhaps it is better to lose the members that can't or won't deal with this problem than to inflict message delay and loss on the rest of the group's membership.Rather than the current ¡®If you don¡¯t understand what is not clear to you, tough luck¡¯ policy (which creates negative experiences and ill-will for quite a number of would be subscribers/members), why not try something to do a better of education. I see the reason subscribers ¡°can¡¯t or won¡¯t¡± not as an unwillingness, but as a failure to be properly enlightened. I¡¯m not convinced that the best way to teach it is to let people 'get burnt by touching the hot stove¡¯ rather than good education by qualified professionals. The fact that questions about this keep coming up on GMF, says that many groups owners and subscribers/members aren¡¯t clear about this.This hidden knowledge strategy has not succeeded. I don¡¯t think you get ¡®horses to drink by hiding the water¡¯. Sometimes the best relief comes from ¡®not continuing to bang your head against the wall¡¯. Groups.io could send a monthly (probably more frequent) Special Notices ...There should be an effective way to ¡®show horses where the water is', so that they are 'likely to drink¡¯. The question is how to do that. I favor too much over too little explanation, after all ¡°Education may be costly, but the results are often better than the cheaper Ignorance¡±. I believe those messages would be likely to cause more harm than good by themselves being diverted to spam or marked as spam. And they would annoy the bulk of my group members unnecessarily.Maybe the wording needs to be something like ¡°PLEASE READ: How to ensure you are not unsubscribed¡±, rather that using the word SPAM in the title... At the very least, I'd ask Groups.io to exclude members using email services that don't have an FBL mechanism, or that don't use it this way. If such an education campaign were to be done system-wide I'd strongly advocate that it be targeted only to users who've been unsubscribed for spam at least once.I agree that it is desirable to target only those who it applies to and need it, however I do advocate ¡®an ounce of prevention¡¯ over a ¡®pounds of cure¡¯ approach. Perhaps it should be presented in an ¡®opt-out form¡¯ such as ¡°Terms of Use agreements¡± are. These notices should be clear (in non-computer savvy language) and brief enough so they are likely to be read, with the ¡®opt-out (from receiving repeated notices)¡¯ being an ¡°I understand¡± button. Groups.io should be sure to explain WHY and HOW (in non-computer savvy language), not just refer what seems to many to be a cryptic Wiki.That's part of how the information is 'hidden from', versus ¡®provided to¡¯... (I suggest non-computer savvy people should proof read this and be assessed for their understanding).Agreed. Perhaps the best way to get it started is to post the text here (not a link), and ask for comments and suggested edits¡ |
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Re: New to Groups.io
#question
Pam,
I really need help sorry -- have looked for a Wiki Help page but cant find anything. ?
Perhaps ironically, it is on GMF's Wiki: Wiki Guide for Users and Editors.
?
I have never used a Wiki before and really have no idea what they do! ?
Wikis are just a quick and easy way to write web pages*. In the case of Groups.io's Wiki feature you create the pages using a text editor that is almost identical to the one used for messages (New Topic and Reply). You can think of your group's Wiki as a collection of messages that weren't sent to the group, but instead were posted to the Wiki section.
?
Shal
* The name comes from "W" - wikiwiki being a word in Hawaiian for something quick or speedy. It is also a play on the "www" (World Wide Web) designation used for website pages.
?
-- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Re: How best to educate about the 'Removed for SPAM' problem
Michael, This problem affects all email List users, because if not solved, Groups.io becomes less effective when subscribers/members unexpectedly are unsubscribed. The flip side of that is that Groups.io becomes much less effective if members experience non-delivery of the messages for which they are subscribed. Indeed, delays and non-delivery of messages is one of the factors often cited here by group managers moving from Yahoo Groups. From a ruthless point of view, perhaps it is better to lose the members that can't or won't deal with this problem than to inflict message delay and loss on the rest of the group's membership. The fact that questions about this keep coming up on GMF, says that many groups owners and subscribers/members aren¡¯t clear about this. It is reasonable to suggest that Groups.io should have more detail in the Removed Because of Spam section of the Help page. Especially if you can suggest wording that passes muster for clarity to non-technical readers. Groups.io could send a monthly (probably more frequent) Special Notices ... No. Just no. I believe those messages would be likely to cause more harm than good by themselves being diverted to spam or marked as spam. And they would annoy the bulk of my group members unnecessarily. At the very least, I'd ask Groups.io to exclude members using email services that don't have an FBL mechanism, or that don't use it this way. If such an education campaign were to be done system-wide I'd strongly advocate that it be targeted only to users who've been unsubscribed for spam at least once. Groups.io should be sure to explain WHY and HOW (in non-computer savvy language), not just refer what seems to many to be a cryptic Wiki. If you mean GMF's wiki page Removed for Marking Messages as spam, help us improve it. But as far as I know Groups.io itself doesn't refer users to it. ?(I suggest non-computer savvy people should proof read this and be assessed for their understanding). Good idea, for all help pages actually. But that takes time and effort. Is it a suitable project for a volunteer? Anyone here volunteering to undertake it with your own group members? Shal -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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How best to educate about the 'Removed for SPAM' problem
This problem affects all email List users, because if not solved, Groups.io becomes less effective when subscribers/members unexpectedly are unsubscribed.
The responsibility to educate individual email List users should not be on individual groups owner, who will not all do so (if at all) in a clear and rational way. The fact that questions about this keep coming up on GMF, says that many groups owners and subscribers/members aren¡¯t clear about this. I say in my Welcome Message to new subscribers (although this is probably not enough): If [groupname] messages are misdirected (probably by your Email Provider) into your Spam and/or Junk folders: DO NOT DELETE THEM, MOVE THEM TO YOUR INBOX - Marking and/or deleting [groupname] messages as SPAM or JUNK can send an automatic "Unsubscribe" command - this is a new anti-Spam mandate that is being adopted by Email Providers. Email List group providers, such as Groups.io, are in the best position to do it well and for all Groups.io users. Groups.io could send a monthly (probably more frequent) Special Notices asking users for their help (including explaining WHY) and telling users to be sure to (and HOW): -Not to mark any Groups.io message as SPAM or JUNK (even if it is a SPAM post and/or from a hacked email address, but to report to their group owner). -Check their SPAM / JUNK folders regularly (daily or weekly) - just as you would your US mail box for physical, ¡®postal¡¯ mail. -Not to delete any Groups.io message marked as SPAM or JUNK. -Not to let their Email Provider automatically delete any Groups.io message marked as SPAM or JUNK -That they may get Unsubscribed for this -What to do if they get Unsubscribed Groups.io should be sure to explain WHY and HOW (in non-computer savvy language), not just refer what seems to many to be a cryptic Wiki. Pictures and/or videos might be useful. The test is not ¡®does it make sense to those in the know¡¯ but does everyone (who doesn¡¯t know about this) understand WHAT and HOW it is said. (I suggest non-computer savvy people should proof read this and be assessed for their understanding). |
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Re: pay for group
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Re: members being removed
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Re: pay for group
Ellen,
Basic groups are free. But you'll notice that there's no advertising in Groups.io, and no one is tracking your activity here or selling your information to advertisers. The users who choose to upgrade to Premium or Enterprise groups pay the piper, and that keeps the lights on for them, and also for those of us with free groups. As Duane said, you can see the plans, with a feature comparison chart, on the Pricing page. There's a link to it in the bar at the bottom of every Groups.io page (along with other useful links). Shal (So anytime you feel the urge to "give back" a little for all of this free service, buy a month or two of Premium. Or go big with Enterprise. Thank you.) -- Help: /static/help More Help: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Even More Help: Search button at the top of Messages list |
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Re: pay for group
On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 05:42 PM, Ellen Bourne wrote:
I thought Groups.io was free There are 3 separate levels of groups, as shown on the Pricing page, /static/pricing Duane -- Help: /static/help GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki Search button at the top of Messages list A few site FAQs: /static/pricing#frequently-asked-questions |
Samuel Murray
Shal Farley
Michael Pavan
Anita L
Duane