A couple of links on the Wiki Home seem to have gotten corrupted recently, so I've fixed them.? The one for Databases should work again.? BTW, anyone can edit a Wiki page, no need to report it, just fix it. ;>)

Duane
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In this groups Wiki home page, the link for "Setting up a Database (updated Nov 24, 2016)" takes me to the page for "How To Stop Getting Two Copies Of Emails You Send". It didn't offer very much information or advice about databases on Groups.io. Could someone with Wiki skills perhaps correct the link? It probably doesn't need the "updated" text, either.

- Mark

Don,

Thanks for the comprehensive results!

In my opinion, this flow could use use some attention. At the very
least, the user should be told what is, and is not, happening (i.e.
subscription request to the main group, but no request to join the
subgroup).

I concur.

(Personally, I'd prefer that the user need to approve the request to
subscribe to the main group before it's actually made -- maybe he'd
rather not join either if that's the condition.)

That's always the precondition, so I'm inclined to go the other way: try to automate it so that the subgroup request/join completes seamlessly, folding the primary group subscription into the flow.

The question then comes down to how to keep the user properly informed along the way. Perhaps the communications to the user could refer to both in the form of "xyz, a subgroup, and its primary group abc".

Also the initial account email confirmation should not reference the
subgroup, if the subgroup subscription isn't part of the deal.

Agreed, but with a preference that the solution be in the form of making it part of the the deal. I think.

Thoughts?

I think you've established a good base of knowledge for rewriting your "bottom line" in the form of a proposed set of changes to the flow that could be posted in beta. I like to give Mark as detailed a proposal as I can muster, both to be more sure that what I'm proposing is actually reasonable and to (hopefully) make it easier for him to decide to "just do it". ;-)

See also this thread about the same issue:
/g/GroupManagersForum/topic/20817618
and the matching beta post:


You could follow up that one or start another.

Shal


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Hooty,

I have 5 Yahoo groups in waiting for about 2 weeks I think. I re-sent
invitations for IO ( [email protected] ) to join again last night.
Seems like either I am doing something wrong or there is a process
failure in another way.

That's Step 2, so I assume you've also taken Step 1 to set up the transfers.
As Gerald mentioned there is a backlog of groups to be transferred, so two
weeks may not be out of line.

If you haven't, see also Bruce's step-by-step process
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/8697
And the additional tips here:
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Transfer-from-Yahoo-Groups

I have given the IO groups the same names as the Yahoo groups.

So it looks like you've got Step 0 covered. By the way, it isn't required that you name the groups the same, so if you want to change any now would be the best time.

I notice that your Y!Groups are related in content matter, so I thought I'd mention that it isn't required that there be a 1:1 match-up between Yahoo Groups and Groups.io groups. You can copy two Y!Groups into the same Groups.io group, and you can copy a Y!Group into a subgroup of a Groups.io group. So you have some options there if you want to re-think the structure of your groups.

If you want to make any of those changes you can still do so up until
the time you give the final go-ahead on each group's In Process page (Step 4). There's an update button on the page that will allow you to change your copy options, and I believe that includes the Groups.io
group selection (but not the Y!Group name IIRC).

It is my understanding that when you accept the invitations that I
have sent you, you will notify me so I can make you a moderator.

Please note that GMF is a user-to-user forum - no Groups.io employees here. That said, yes. In Step 3 the transfer agent will send you an email with instructions. And then in Step 4 you use the In Process page for each
Y!Group to tell the transfer agent that you're ready to go.

By the way, you have the word 'clicking' misspelled at
/yahootransfer

Bug reports go to [email protected], and the official suggestion box for Groups.io is the beta group:

Hugs and thanks for any help on my group transfers you can give me.

You're welcome. Feel free to reply back to this group if you have more questions or comments.

Shal
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I think the only thing missing is likely patience. The queue is quite long (several weeks) at this time.?Take a scan through recent postings and you'll see that many others are in the same boat.
?
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Gerald

Thank you all.?
Got it!

开云体育

Hello, ? I have 5 Yahoo groups in waiting for about 2 weeks I think. I re-sent invitations for IO (?[email protected] )?to join again last night. Seems like either I am doing something wrong or there is a process failure in another way. Any help would be appreciated.? I am wanting to move my files and memberships over for all 5 groups. ? They are: ? ? ? ? ? I have given the IO groups the same names as the Yahoo groups. ? It is my understanding that when you accept the invitations that I have sent you, you will notify me so I can make you a moderator. Then I am to tell you that I have done that and you will then start the transfer of memberships and contents over. Tick tock.lol ---------------------- By the way, you have the word 'clicking' misspelled at /yahootransfer ? Hugs and thanks for any help on my group transfers you can give me. Hooty ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

开云体育

Estelle,

I was unable to enter anything in the blank?Groups.io Group?field, not before and not after the dash (-), nor in the blue drop down field.

As Duane said, that field is a drop-list: you select one of your groups, you don't need to enter (type) anything.



Alas, I couldn't capture a screen-shot of it open, the list closed automatically every time I tried. And besides, you don't need to know all the groups I own... ;-)

The list includes only groups you own (not just moderate), and by "you" I mean you the account (email address) currently logged in to Groups.io. So if you completed Step 0 - create your new Groups.io group - while logged in under a different email address that could explain having an empty list.

Shal


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On 6/10/2018 11:56, Shal Farley wrote:

The typical way of scaling such things is to use horizontal scaling
with a load balancer front end that has session traffic marking.

This sounds like a description of inbound load balancing, but I imagine that outbound sort-of mirrors it.

It is.? I wasn't sure how technical the audience is here, so I decided to only post client side of things to avoid confusion.

I know that Yahoo Groups' outbound system sorted the traffic by destination domain and generally sent batches of messages to each domain in order to reduce transaction overhead. They also used a fleet of outbound servers (physical, in the day, possibly virtual later) covering a large number of IP addresses - something Lena has tracked over the years, and which at one time was listed here to help mail services with whitelisting them:


But Groups.io is built out of much more modern stuff (hardware and software), and as yet anyway likely carries much less traffic, so its structure is likely much different.

All of a transaction usually takes only seconds,

Back in March Mark commented that outbound traffic was peaking near 5M messages per day, which is something like 60 per second. So clearly a fair amount of parallelism is required in the transaction handling. And would be anyway, just to avoid stalling on a particularly slow destination server.

Whether that load can be handled in a single modern-day server, or requires multiples, and in the latter case whether the multiples can hide behind some form of edge concentrator to appear as a single outbound IP address is where my curiosity lead.

So, the typical way of doing an outbound server is to have a message queue and the outbound servers grab messages off the queue and send them as fast as they can.? This is to prevent the servers from backing up or flooding their own NICs.

To do what Yahoo! did, just have multiple queues, one for each common domain, where the queues batch messages into tasks that the servers send in single transactions.

To mimic a single IP address just takes a proxy and if all traffic goes through the proxy, then it all has the same IP address.? Of course, care must be taken to not swamp the proxy.

But if there's only been one Groups.io outbound IP then that's not Outlook/HotMail's excuse.

There is nothing Groups.io can do to save MS from itself.? ;)

Best,

Glenn

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Hi. You need to be logged in to

Thanks.

From Michael.

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 02:34 pm, E Brandler wrote:

I was unable to enter anything in the blank?Groups.io Group?field, not before and not after the dash (-), nor in the blue drop down field.

That is a drop down box and will have the names of the Groups.io groups you've created that you can choose from to transfer into.

Duane
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Everyone says it is so easy, I feel rather dumb!

This is where I got stuck... I entered my Yahoo group name.
I was unable to enter anything in the blank?Groups.io Group?field, not before and not after the dash (-), nor in the blue drop down field.

What am I missing/doing wrong?
Please help!

Estelle
PS ignore the extra field at very bottom. For some reason could not delete it.

On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 12:52 pm, Sheryl Harkleroad wrote:

My group has created sub-groups and would like to move the files migrated from Yahoo from the parent group to our sub-group. Can this be done?

Not conveniently.

The existing file Move function only works within a [sub]group. You could download the files from the main group and upload them to the subgroup manually; with the caveat that whoever performs the upload would then be listed as the "owner" of the files.

The other option is to initiate a second transfer from your Yahoo group, selecting the files areas only for transfer, and have them all sent to the subgroup; with all the corresponding waiting in queue for the transfer agent to get around to it.

Hope this helps,
Bruce?
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Shal,

Thanks for letting me play in your sandbox.? Here's what happened:

• When I tried to join the subgroup while logged in, I received the error banner "You cannot subscribe to this subgroup until you are a member of the parent group", however a request was made to join the main group (I only knew that because I received the "Pending Subscription" message)
  
• When I was logged out, but tried to join the subgroup using an email? address groups.io recognized, I was told via an error banner that I needed to login before I could join the group.
• When I was logged out, and tried to join using a new email address, I received two error banners: "Your account is not confirmed. You will not be able to participate in any groups until your account is confirmed", and "You cannot subscribe to this subgroup until you are a member of the parent group." I received two emails immediately:
  
• The first email was from the subgroup asking me to follow a link to confirm my email address (which I did). The email body told me how to post to the subgroup.
• The second email was the "Pending Subscription" message from the main group.
• When the request to join the main group was accepted, I received "Welcome" and "Guidelines" emails from the main group. I was not subscribed to the subgroup.

So, the bottom line is

• If I was logged in, or using a new email address, a subscription request to the main group was sent without my knowledge.
• When I used the new email address, which generated the "email confirmation" email, it came from the?subgroup and implied that I'd be subscribed to the subgroup (i.e. it told me where to send email if I wanted to post to the subgroup).
• I was not subscribed to the subgroup.

In my opinion, this flow could use use some attention. At the very least, the user should be told what is, and is not, happening (i.e. subscription request to the main group, but no request to join the subgroup). (Personally, I'd? prefer that the user need to approve the request to subscribe to the main group before it's actually made -- maybe he'd rather not join either if that's the condition.) Also the initial account email confirmation should not reference the subgroup, if the subgroup subscription isn't part of the deal.

Thoughts?

-Don

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Glenn,

HELO groupmanagersforum.groups.io

LOL!

The typical way of scaling such things is to use horizontal scaling
with a load balancer front end that has session traffic marking.

This sounds like a description of inbound load balancing, but I imagine that outbound sort-of mirrors it.

I know that Yahoo Groups' outbound system sorted the traffic by destination domain and generally sent batches of messages to each domain in order to reduce transaction overhead. They also used a fleet of outbound servers (physical, in the day, possibly virtual later) covering a large number of IP addresses - something Lena has tracked over the years, and which at one time was listed here to help mail services with whitelisting them:


But Groups.io is built out of much more modern stuff (hardware and software), and as yet anyway likely carries much less traffic, so its structure is likely much different.

All of a transaction usually takes only seconds,

Back in March Mark commented that outbound traffic was peaking near 5M messages per day, which is something like 60 per second. So clearly a fair amount of parallelism is required in the transaction handling. And would be anyway, just to avoid stalling on a particularly slow destination server.

Whether that load can be handled in a single modern-day server, or requires multiples, and in the latter case whether the multiples can hide behind some form of edge concentrator to appear as a single outbound IP address is where my curiosity lead.

Where it has an impact on we users is when destination services use IP-based filtering, and need to maintain a whitelist or reputation database. As apparently is the case with Outlook/HotMail. In the extreme case you end up with something like Yahoo Group's server list that must be published. Though from what Mark (and the posting cited below) said it seems there are now more official "back channel" ways to communicate server addresses between senders and receivers.

Before Lena's answer I thought perhaps the cited IP address might have been a new one, causing the disruption because it was unknown to Outlook/HotMail. That is, I thought this might have been an instance similar to this (though years old):


But if there's only been one Groups.io outbound IP then that's not Outlook/HotMail's excuse.

Shal


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Hi Lena!

> groups.io uses only one outbound server (a SMTP proxy): 66.175.222.12

Thanks, I was kind of wondering about that but wasn't sure.

I don't know enough about modern systems configuration (and all the available edge devices) to guess whether that can remain true as Groups.io grows.

Shal

HELO groupmanagersforum.groups.io

SMTP is a state-in-transaction protocol, meaning that during a transaction (sending a single message) there is state (mostly keeping track of what stage of the protocol we are in) during a transaction, but there is no state in-between transactions.

The typical way of scaling such things is to use horizontal scaling with a load balancer front end that has session traffic marking.? The basic idea is that if you have three servers, Alice, Bob and Charlie that are all identical in terms of SMTP processing, and someone sends a message. The balancer may assign this transaction to Charlie and then all packets for this transaction (session, in load balancer terms) will be routed to Charlie.? Once the transaction is completed, the session info is deleted and the next message may to go Alice, to Bob or to Charlie again, route to that host for that transaction and so on.?

There are different policies for choosing which of Alice, Bob or Charlie is chosen for a particular session, the two most common are random assignment and assignment to the host with the least number of sessions at the time of decision.

All of a transaction usually takes only seconds, the sender perceives it as the time between clicking send and a notification from their MUA that the mail was sent.

Best,

Glenn

QUIT

I just told my group about it and made it a locked speckal notice so no replies are wanted. But hopefully it will get people's attention.

Take care

Nancy,

If a person uses the mute hashtag option the message will still be in
digest or summary - correct?

Not in a digest. Muting or Following have the same effect in digest content as for individual messages.

I'm uncertain about whether the Summary content reflects an individual's Muting or Following choices.

Shal


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On Sun, Jun 10, 2018 at 09:21 am, Nancy in Renton wrote:

If a person uses the mute hashtag option the message will still be in digest or summary - correct??

I haven't tried all the combinations, but a muted topic should never be included in the emails received from the group.

What about if a person creates a message with automatic timeout, does that message show in email or digest that it has an expiration date?

No, there's no indication of when the timeout will happen, it just does.

Duane
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