The messages in question involve people who are using their online Yahoo mail inboxes, not the groups.io website messages page.?

The group message received in their Yahoo inbox has a return address of the person who posted the original message to the group, instead of the group.io address.

The members replying to the message in their Yahoo inbox see the subject line is "Re: the group topic" and don't notice that the To: line is a private email address instead of the group's address. Then if the person receiving that reply responds back, that response goes to the other members' Yahoo address, and now the circle is established between the two unsuspecting members, chatting or arguing back and forth unaware that they are communicating directly rather than through the group. LOL

But anyway, we'll change the Admin settings and see if that fixes it.

Thanks!

-Daniel

Shal; thanks for that. Anyway as you have probably spotted I have transferred this to the beta group so it is now simply a question of "wait and see".

I sincerely hope some alterations can be made to the notifications because IMHO it will reduce the confusion that arises and make managing the overall situation just a little bit easier for both Owners / Moderators and Members, particularly for any groups that migrate from Yahoo in the future. Groups.io is a much nicer platform than Yahoo and if it can be made better still then so much the better. By all accounts Yahoo was completely impossible to negotiate with over matters like this.

Chris

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Hi,

I have to admit this thread has totally confused me.? But I did want to ask one really stupid question - why does Groups.io care if the messages from here are going to someone's spam folder?? Why unsubscribe them?? Why not just leave it, is there some negative effect to Groups.io of having messages go into someone's spam folder?? Again sorry if this has been covered, or if it is a dumb question.

Barb B

Thank you, Bruce and Frances, for your quick replies. We'll change those Admin settings as suggested and see if that fixes it.

-Daniel

Daniel,

Over the past few days it's come to my attention that when a group
member with a Yahoo email address replies to a group message from
another member, sometimes the reply message is being sent to the email
address of the person who posted the original message instead of to
the group's groups.io address.

That implies to me either:

1) that in those cases Yahoo Mail ignored the "Reply-To" header field sent in the outbound Groups.io message, or

2) that a member used their email interface's Reply-to-all function and replied to both the group and to the sender - and subsequently the sender may have replied to the message that arrived directly rather than the copy that arrived via the group.

I think (2) may be the more likely (despite my misgivings about Yahoo Mail) because some email interfaces can be set to have "reply to all" be the default reply behavior.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I have noticed
that, for members with @yahoo.com email addresses, their address in
groups.io emails appears as "their_name=yahoo.com @ groups.io" instead
of "their_name @ yahoo.com"

It doesn't. The mangling of addresses From certain email services (Yahoo Mail included) relates to an anti-spoofing protocol known as DMARC. It is a long story of (IMO) stupidity.
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/2923

Is this problem with misdirected group mail from Yahoo email addresses
known to the groups.io staff?

I think the topic has come up on beta in the past, but I don't recall if it was related specifically to Yahoo Mail.

If not, would someone please look into it?

No one from Groups.io staff reads GMF. You could bring it up in the beta group, but I doubt there's much Groups.io can do about a problem occurring at Yahoo Mail, if that's the case, or a problem based on the members' email settings and/or choices.

Shal


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Chris,

From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
...
Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

I see the mixed message there.

Like Duane, I suspect the From names the group admins in part to direct any reply there. It may also be the case that, despite group messages having gone to that member's spam folder, that the group-specific address may be more likely to be delivered to the member's Inbox than a generic groups.io address.

secondly it reads /Because your email service reported to us that you
have marked one or more messages from [email protected]
as spam/ when in fact this was simply not the case;

This may sound weaselly, but that likely is exactly the case. That is, it is what "your email service reported to us" - the fact that certain email services falsely report their own marking as if it were the user's action is the problem. Note in the Wikipedia article "... by which a mailbox provider (MP) forwards the complaints originating from their users ...".

Mark's out for this is "If this was a mistake ..." -- anyone's mistake. Because it is almost certainly the member's mistake some fraction of the time, the cases that get reported here notwithstanding.

That said, your rewrite of "you have marked" with "has been marked" is probably a good way to cover the ambiguity.

Shal


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Did by chance the third person reply privately instead of to the group?

Bruce

P.S. This is why I have private messaging (and message editing) disabled. It seems to only lead to confusion.

Also, sometimes you will get the Yahoo "purple banner of death" even when the invitation went through. Best to attempt to invite two people...one with an address you can check afterward. Sometimes doing a hard refresh (ctrl-F5) beforehand will help it go through, too.

One thing about Y!G...you can never be sure what's going on, and if there's anyone on the other end they seem to spend a lot of time asleep at the switch. Good luck!

Bruce

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What do you mean by "message delivery problems?" Message landing in spam, bouncing, disappearing into thin air?

Bruce

To disable this, go to Admin->Settings->Message Policies. Pull down the menu and select "Reply to Group," and check the box below that says "Remove other reply options." Be sure to save your changes.

Bruce?

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 07:55 am, Duane wrote:

Obviously I can't be sure of Mark's thinking on this, but suspect that it shows as coming from the group to add a bit of authenticity, as well as someone to contact for assistance.?

I see the point you are making here, but would state that with the Help pages not providing any information about this "feature" a Group Owner & Moderators are not well placed to provide assistance without a great deal of delving along the lines I am pursuing, which would turn out to be a variant of reinventing the wheel.

It's the actual Email Service Provider where they are being marked as spam, either by a filter or a user.? Many folks, including me, have an Internet Service Provider that is different from our ESP.? Because of that, I'd reword that part of the message as:

"Because your Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages from [GroupName]@groups.io has been marked as spam you have been automatically removed from the group.? Please note that this "marking as spam" may have been done by your Email Service Provider and not by you. We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Email Service Provider has diverted legitimate messages into it."

I agree fully with you on this point; I got halfway there by deliberately not saying "Internet Service Provider" but your suggestion of inserting "Email" makes perfect sense. It might be prudent to also insert (which might not be the same as your ISP) at a suitable location as well.

Joining the beta group and posting this as a suggestion would get it in front of Mark where he would be more apt to change the wording of the message.

OK you've convinced me. I'll do that and see what happens, not least because I don't want to try and prepare a "Help Note" which has to be changed soon thereafter because the notifications have been altered. (And yes; I have started!)

Regards,

Chris

Hi again,
If the message was sent using Private, the subject would not be identical to the original message. It would have the word Private inserted. Such as:
Re: Private: Re: Group Name Spelling Error Correction
or Private: Venice transport

Frances

Good morning,

Are other groups having message delivery problems to member email accounts at cox.net? I've contacted Cox, but wondering if it's limited to our group.

Thanks!
-Dave

There may be an issue but Just a small point -?
What are your group settings? Perhaps you could temporarily disable reply to member (Private) option.
At least until another solution is found?
I assume that the members are choosing to reply to the group and not selecting Private (bottom right of the screen.)

Frances

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 06:00 am, Chris Jones wrote:

Now IMHO the above is misleading on two grounds; firstly it appears that it was sent by the individual Group itself (i.e. the owner or Moderators) when in fact it was not. I feel that the originator should be "Groups.io Management Team" or somesuch;

Obviously I can't be sure of Mark's thinking on this, but suspect that it shows as coming from the group to add a bit of authenticity, as well as someone to contact for assistance.? Keep in mind that when this happens, no email is sent to that address from any groups.io group in an effort to keep this site from being blacklisted.

secondly it reads Because your email service reported to us that you have marked one or more messages from wireless-set-[email protected] as spam when in fact this was simply not the case; it was the ISP (specifically aol) that marked the message as spam, not the member. Under those circumstances anyone receiving such a message would be perfectly entitled to treat it with the greatest of suspicion. It would be much better (again IMHO) if the sentence read something like

Because your Service Provider's email service reported to us that you have marked one or more messages from wireless-set-[email protected] has been marked as spam you have been automatically removed from the group. Please note that this "marking as spam" may have been done by your Service Provider and not by you. We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Service Provider has diverted a perfectly legitimate message into it.

It's the actual Email Service Provider where they are being marked as spam, either by a filter or a user.? Many folks, including me, have an Internet Service Provider that is different from our ESP.? Because of that, I'd reword that part of the message as:

"Because your Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages from [GroupName]@groups.io has been marked as spam you have been automatically removed from the group.? Please note that this "marking as spam" may have been done by your Email Service Provider and not by you. We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Email Service Provider has diverted legitimate messages into it."

Joining the beta group and posting this as a suggestion would get it in front of Mark where he would be more apt to change the wording of the message.

Duane
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Over the past few days it's come to my attention that when a group member with a Yahoo email address replies to a group message from another member, sometimes the reply message is being sent to the email address of the person who posted the original message instead of to the group's groups.io address. And then if the other person responds back, the response is going to the first person's private email address instead of to the the group.

Since the message has the original group Re: Topic subject line, the members aren't realizing right away that they are talking back and forth privately instead of through the group. Needless to say. this is causing some confusion!

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I have noticed that, for members with @yahoo.com email addresses, their address in groups.io emails appears as? "their_name@..." instead of? "their_name@..."

Is this problem with misdirected group mail from Yahoo email addresses known to the groups.io staff? If not, would someone please look into it?

If Yahoo hadn't already been falling apart I would have suspected that it is just Verizon's way of telling people to get lost. They did that with their DSL customers-- just let the infrastructure rot and keep jacking up the prices until people get tired of the constant problems and go elsewhere.

Drew

Many thanks for the "further and better particulars", including the betagroups.io links, which are very informative in showing that we are dealing with a well known problem to which there seems to be no immediately obvious solution.

I have also received a copy of the "dismemberment" email received by the person most recently affected. It reads as follows: (I have hidden his details.)

Chris,

That reads suspiciously like "why don't you (i.e. me!) write
something", which is fair enough; I don't much like "somebody /else/
should do something" attitudes myself!

Glad you understand. Since this is an all-volunteer effort the more people I can convince to volunteer some effort the better the result can be.

One snag I can see is that if this case is typical the member
concerned did not see the message that had been spuriously marked as
spam, and it is not impossible that the deletion notification was also
shunted into his spam box.

That's an unfortunate problem. I'm not sure what Groups.io can do about it (other than encourage people not to use such email services).

Groups.io /knows/ that it is not originating spam, so why is it
allowing others (e.g. aol) to determine that it is?

"Allowing"? The member's email service makes that determination on its own - Groups.io would love to be able to persuade them otherwise.

From my perspective (which I have to accept is less than complete) a
simple solution is to break the feedback loop and for Groups.io to
ignore others marking messages as spam.

There seems to be an implied stick to the FBL contract: unsubscribe this user or we (the email service) will dump more/all email messages from your list service into our users' Spam folders. Or outright reject them. Doubtless it isn't as black and white as that. I more suspect that compliance is simply fed in as another factor in the email system's Spam/Ham discriminator function.

Unfortunately Mark's perspective is less than complete as well. I'm not too surprised - I can understand why email services might be wary about revealing details of how they determine which messages are spam.


(email)

Shal


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