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Thanks, Duane. I hope it's very high on the list. :)
J

They're not logged, only sent to you if you use Bcc: It's been discussed in several threads on beta@ and is on the TODO list. It will probably come as part of the Notifications Overhaul, but may be split off from that.

Duane

Noel,

Our group is public, in that anyone can join and read messages.

I meant public in the stricter sense that anyone can read the messages, without joining. I don't know whether the DMCA (or a lawyer arguing about it) considers those effectively the same. Which is what I mean by having a field day with it.

But he also objected to transferring messages from other people that
included his messages as quotes.

In Groups.io there is an option not available in Yahoo Groups: the posted messages can be edited to remove the quoted material. But beyond a handful of messages that would be even more impractical than message deletion, without some form of automation.

Longstanding tradition in Yahoo Groups is that he's out of luck on that claim. But IANAL nor would I wouldn't presume to guess how Groups.io might handle it should a take-down be filed.

Another good reason for inline quoting, trimmed to relevant parts. That probably puts the quotes squarely in "fair use" territory (IANAL again).

Shal

Noel . . .

On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 11:09:55 +0100, "Noel Leaver"
<n.leaver@...> wrote:

We have over 150,000 messages so it would have needed at least a way to
delete all messages from a particular user. But he also objected to
transferring messages from other people that included his messages as
quotes.

I wonder what he will think when you shut down the Yahoo group (turn
off posting for regular members)? Will you lose him or will he migrate
to the new group? Just thinking out loud.

Donald

The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who
speak it. --George Orwell

On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 12:32 am, Shal Farley wrote:

I don't think it is so much a bug as something that hasn't been done. It is on the to-do list:

?Our group also would love to be able to monitor what certain members upload. Most members get that we are paying for space but others upload far too many useless (to us) photos. We get around that in most our groups and sub-groups by making all but one photo section moderator upload only. ?This gets very time consuming in one of our groups but where it is member upload, we have a few members who are "out of control". ?One member has almost 200 photos and the mod who would know for sure what pics are useless just has not the time to remove and re-remove the photos.

--
-LeeAnne

?Archivist

Too, if your group's messages are not public I'm not sure that DMCA even

applies; but that's a subtlety where a lawyer might have a field day.

Our group is public, in that anyone can join and read messages.

As a matter of courtesy to objecting members I would probably delete their

messages after the transfer. Or if there's too many of them inquire about a
way to do that in bulk.

We have over 150,000 messages so it would have needed at least a way to
delete all messages from a particular user. But he also objected to
transferring messages from other people that included his messages as
quotes.

Noel

If you want to move the group, I would suggest calling his bluff by making

the transfer, perhaps without advance notice, then make the announcement in
the Yahoo group and shut off all posting and make it announcement only right
away.

We have already moved the group without transferring messages etc.

In practice this may be a good thing as most postings are only of transient
interest or so old they are outdated, 99%+ of messages are of no current
interest and probably several people have the ones that are of interest
stored in their email client and could repost them if the subject came up
again. What is really needed is to extract the content of the useful
postings into Wiki FAQ pages, but that is a lot of work. Similarly when I
looked at what had accumulated in the files and photos section over 18 years
I realised nearly all was junk and it would be a lot of work sorting out
what was not and filing it better.

As on this group, there was much discussion of what the legal position is
and suggestions for what to do, but in practice it just is not worth the
possible hassle and distraction.

Noel

I don't think it is so much a bug as something that hasn't been done. It

is on the to-do list:

While I agree full moderation of loading photos is an enhancement not a bug,
I think that in its absence it the correct behaviour is to prevent moderated
users from loading photos, not to allow it.

For example, consider group that allows anyone to join but moderated the
first post. As it is at the moment anyone can join and upload photos without
the moderators being aware. I would expect that a user on moderation would
not be allowed to make any updates to the group without permission. I'll
post this on the Beta group topic.

Noel

Noel,

A moderated user is allowed to upload photos - surely this is a bug?

I don't think it is so much a bug as something that hasn't been done. It is on the to-do list:


Also:

In Yahoo Groups we had a checkbox to prevent a member from uploading files, but for photos we only got a notification, no ability to moderate or block an individual member from uploading.

The following are some observations and wishes from what I have tried
(perhaps I've missed something).

The rest of these I don't see on the to-do list.

Posting in beta@ a well-written description of what you want is likely to be the best way to get it on the to-do list.

Myself I'd like to see a "grand unification" of sorts of photos, files, and possibly wiki-pages such that they have the same capabilities, despite being presented differently. That is, I don't see why the ability to make subfolders (aka nested albums) should be a feature of Files but not Photos. Likewise with cut-and-paste for moving them around.

And the other way too: if we gain the ability to moderate or selectively block the upload of photos, we should have that ability with respect to files also. And wiki pages, perhaps.

Shal

Donald,

"Where there is great power there is great responsibility . . ."

I was thinking of that even as I wrote my message.

The only reason I hesitate is that there were (thankfully few) cases reported in the Yahoo mod groups of a moderator being either confused or spiteful and setting about deleting the group's entire archive.

Maybe there's a way to put some safety guards on such an axe, such as having the deleted messages go into a recoverable state for some period of time, a bit like the Windows' Recycle Bin, and make emptying that bin require a higher level of moderator permission.

Shal

Hi Shal and Sarah,

There is a minor glitch in that the downloaded messages do not contain their message numbers in an obvious way.

However, in the worst case there is a simple URL that allows someone with the group.io cookies for a moderator to obtain the message source (more precisely a cleansed version of the source), this version (at least for my group's messages) gives the original Yahoo message number. So it should be easy to script it up. A quick and dirty script can be written using wget (or the Mac equivalent) with some simple text processing. I've just tested URL with wget and it works.

I think that only group moderators can view the source of the message.

David.

Shal,

"Where there is great power there is great responsibility . . ."

Winston Churchill, 1906



Donald


On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 15:07:17 -0700, "Shal Farley" <shals2nd@...>
wrote:

A half-dozen clicks per message is too much for deleting them manually.
Perhaps a feature to request would be to show moderators a button or
link in the "All Posts By This Member" search results that allows a
moderator to delete them all. But oh, what a terrible axe to have at hand.

The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who
speak it. --George Orwell

Noel . . .

On Mon, 12 Jun 2017 22:38:46 +0100, "Noel Leaver"
<n.leaver@...> wrote:

We offered him both those options. His reply was it was our problem not his
to delete them, he had no intention of joining the new group, and he would
issue a DMCA takedown request immediately if we did transfer any of his
postings.

I think he is incorrect but at the very worst Mark would handle the
DMCA request for you. Yahoo's stand was that the user had to delete
his own posts, and that may be a reasonable demand upon the
complainer.

You could contact Mark about this and see how this would be handled,
if you really want to make the transfer.

You could also try to thwart the person's attempts to delete all the
posts by telling him that he would have to file a separate request for
each occurrence, with specifics about the message like message number
at the least.

If you want to move the group, I would suggest calling his bluff by
making the transfer, perhaps without advance notice, then make the
announcement in the Yahoo group and shut off all posting and make it
announcement only right away.

Of course, it's up to you what you do. If you think the troublemaker
is worth keeping enough that you'll keep the group on Yahoo, then you
will still have the troublemaker. He may not be a troublemaker, of
course, if you stay with Yahoo, and that's something you'll have to
guess ahead of time.

I just hate to punish the rest of your members with staying with Yahoo
when it's only one member who's pitching a fit. In my eyes that sort
of person isn't an asset to the group anyway.

Donald

The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who
speak it. --George Orwell

Duane,

I believe he would have to give an exact location of (link to) the
"offending" material before he could request a DMCA action. ... DMCA
gets abused a lot, but has very specific instructions for use.

The procedures are somewhat up to the hosting site to establish.
Groups.io's are specified in the TOS:
/static/tos

Of note is the requirement:

o a description of where the material that you claim is infringing
is located on the Service, with enough detail that we may find it
on the Service;

That's fairly non-specific and Groups.io could accept something as broad
as "messages from xxx in group yyy".

At the other extreme I've read it alleged that some services go so far
as to require a separate filing for each message.

The risk to the group owner is that:
"Groups.io may also at its sole discretion limit access to the Service
and/or terminate the memberships of any users who infringe any
intellectual property rights of others, whether or not there is any
repeat infringement."

But I think it unlikely Mark would take that stand in the case of transferred messages. I think that's an escape for much more serious cases.

Shal

Related to Duane's comment, I don't even think he'd have a case for a DCMA take down request if the material had not been published. I think 'published' implies making the material *public*, as in, public group. But IANAL.

Sent from my iPhone

On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 02:44 pm, Noel Leaver wrote:

he had no intention of joining the new group, and he would
issue a DMCA takedown request immediately if we did transfer any of his
postings.

Hmm, how would he know they'd been transferred if he didn't join? I believe he would have to give an exact location of (link to) the "offending" material before he could request a DMCA action. And as was mentioned, if the archives are set to private, he could only do that by joining. DMCA gets abused a lot, but has very specific instructions for use.

Duane

Noel,

His reply was it was our problem not his to delete them, he had no
intention of joining the new group, and he would issue a DMCA
takedown request immediately if we did transfer any of his postings.

Technically he's right that it isn't his job to delete them. However I think at that point I might have shrugged and let him file the request.

I would also, as a courtesy to Mark, let him know about the situation and see if he would mass-delete the person's messages (or omit them during transfer).

A half-dozen clicks per message is too much for deleting them manually. Perhaps a feature to request would be to show moderators a button or link in the "All Posts By This Member" search results that allows a moderator to delete them all. But oh, what a terrible axe to have at hand.

Shal

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