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Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I think it depends on the technology you use. Sometimes it¡¯s not so easy. I can only move emails out of spam to the relevant inbox when using my iPhone or I can delete them if they really are spam. I can¡¯t mark any as Not spam. When I look at those same emails on my macbook they appear in my inbox where I¡¯ve moved them in brown type and can be marked from there as Not spam. I haven¡¯t discovered a way of doing this on my phone. I suppose there are people who do not have access to a computer for mail and rely entirely on their phones or tablets for email?
Louise

On 28 Jan 2017, at 21:27, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

I'll have to disagree that this is not a user education issue.? Automatic spam classification is not new. You'd think by now people would know about the need to declassify messages automated as spam or to whitefish in their email access method, but many don't. The practice of preclassification by servers came about because of need and has been a boon.? It's not going away and users who don't understand what's what need to be taught about it.
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

J_Catlady
 

Brian,

In that sense I agree. But when Jeff says the user "marked a message as spam" and follows that by saying they have to be better trained, it sounds to me as if he's implying that the user themself marked it as spam. I've heard this line of reasoning from others, as well, and perhaps I am misinterpreting.

J

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

I'll have to disagree that this is not a user education issue.? Automatic spam classification is not new. You'd think by now people would know about the need to declassify messages automated as spam or to whitefish in their email access method, but many don't. The practice of preclassification by servers came about because of need and has been a boon.? It's not going away and users who don't understand what's what need to be taught about it.
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

Brian Vogel
 

I'll have to disagree that this is not a user education issue.? Automatic spam classification is not new. You'd think by now people would know about the need to declassify messages automated as spam or to whitefish in their email access method, but many don't. The practice of preclassification by servers came about because of need and has been a boon.? It's not going away and users who don't understand what's what need to be taught about it.
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

J_Catlady
 

I'm not sure the answer is "user training." My impression is that these users are not themselves marking the messages as spam. It's the email programs that are doing it, which makes the situation even more sinister.?

J

On Sat, Jan 28, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Jeff Powell <jrpstonecarver@...> wrote:
I just figured out that a member went missing because they marked a message as spam and didn't see the email to get back in (because it was automatically marked as spam too). As a result of digging into that and this thread, I decided to figure out how common this is in our group.

I pulled the activity logs for "reported a message as spam" and "resumed membership" since our group arrived on .? Thankfully I could copy/paste them into plain text files for analysis. (It might be nice if things in were easily exportable by the moderators and owners... logs, member lists, message history, etc. Worth considering at some point.) Anyway:

People have marked group messages as spam 65 times.
People have resumed membership only 46 times.

Looking at the people who have marked group messages as spam:
  • 1 person did so 8 times
  • 3 people did so 3 times
  • 4 people did so twice
  • 57 people have done it once
And obviously 19 people have done it and not come back to the group.

The domains where this has happened are:
  • 41
  • 13
  • 5
  • 4
  • 1
  • 1
That is, 41 different addresses have done this, 13 aol addresses, etc.

This is since 9/23/16, which is about when we moved over from yahoo groups to .

Clearly we need to do more user training. A lot of people still mark email as spam, and the results are significant.

And clearly some people don't get the hint and do it more than once, regardless of the fact that they rejoin again (and again... and again, and more in some cases).

Perhaps I should consider emailing the people who marked messages as spam and didn't come back to see if they want to. Or, honestly, I could ignore that. With 2100 members, if they want to come back they can reapply on their own.

But the big takeaway for me, here, is that this problem is significant, and that the message to get back into the group can (apparently pretty easily) be marked as spam and never be seen by the user.? I don't know how to get around that, but this feedback loop mechanism is pretty draconian, and the results are ugly.

I read other posts here about how users doing this can cause problems for others, but so far I see no evidence for that in our group. We have many yahoo email users, and their messages continue to get through, despite the person who has done this 8 times being a yahoo user, and having 40 other yahoo email users that have done it as well. Until I see some evidence that one user's actions can affect others, I am not particularly worried about that.

--jeffp
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

Jeff Powell
 

I just figured out that a member went missing because they marked a message as spam and didn't see the email to get back in (because it was automatically marked as spam too). As a result of digging into that and this thread, I decided to figure out how common this is in our group.

I pulled the activity logs for "reported a message as spam" and "resumed membership" since our group arrived on groups.io. ?Thankfully I could copy/paste them into plain text files for analysis. (It might be nice if things in groups.io were easily exportable by the moderators and owners... logs, member lists, message history, etc. Worth considering at some point.) Anyway:

People have marked group messages as spam 65 times.
People have resumed membership only 46 times.

Looking at the people who have marked group messages as spam:
  • 1 person did so 8 times
  • 3 people did so 3 times
  • 4 people did so twice
  • 57 people have done it once
And obviously 19 people have done it and not come back to the group.

The domains where this has happened are:
  • 41 yahoo.com
  • 13 aol.com
  • 5 msn.com
  • 4 hotmail.com
  • 1 rocketmail.com
  • 1 frontier.com
That is, 41 different yahoo.com addresses have done this, 13 aol addresses, etc.

This is since 9/23/16, which is about when we moved over from yahoo groups to groups.io.

Clearly we need to do more user training. A lot of people still mark email as spam, and the results are significant.

And clearly some people don't get the hint and do it more than once, regardless of the fact that they rejoin again (and again... and again, and more in some cases).

Perhaps I should consider emailing the people who marked messages as spam and didn't come back to see if they want to. Or, honestly, I could ignore that. With 2100 members, if they want to come back they can reapply on their own.

But the big takeaway for me, here, is that this problem is significant, and that the message to get back into the group can (apparently pretty easily) be marked as spam and never be seen by the user. ?I don't know how to get around that, but this feedback loop mechanism is pretty draconian, and the results are ugly.

I read other posts here about how users doing this can cause problems for others, but so far I see no evidence for that in our group. We have many yahoo email users, and their messages continue to get through, despite the person who has done this 8 times being a yahoo user, and having 40 other yahoo email users that have done it as well. Until I see some evidence that one user's actions can affect others, I am not particularly worried about that.

--jeffp
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

Barb,

I had already selected to receive all email in the subscriptions
area. I check advanced section and didn't see anything that would
affect delivery.
That's not the part that controls messages sent to the +owner address. Below the Advanced box you should find a list of checkboxes for which type of mod notices you receive (New Member, Pending message, etc.) and below that is the option for Owner Email.

And I checked my spam box - they are not there. I noticed that when I
added a subgroup, "main" showed up in the name of the group.
Wondering if that addition changed anything?
Yes, it did. Before you added a subgroup your +owner address would have been TemariChallenge+owner @ groups.io (spaces inserted by me). You might try that one, and if it works that would be something to tell support.

When you have subgroups the format of your groups email addresses changes. The subgroup name comes first and the overall group name gets put to the right of the @ sign.

For the primary group the default name is "Main", but you can change that at the top of the settings page (the "Group Email Address" option). If you change that then the +owner address would change correspondingly. If it doesn't that would also be a support issue.

I sent a test email from another email address that I own in case it
didn't go through because I'm sending mail to myself. Weird thought
maybe, but I tried it :)
That's actually a good experiment. In the "Owner Email" option you have a choice of three settings: "All Emails", "Subscribers Only", and "None". So if you had selected "Subscribers Only" then there could be a difference based on your sending address. But it should have been the other way around: you *would* get the message from your address that is a member of the group, but *not* not from your other one (unless it too happens to be a member).


Another thing that may shed some light on what's happening: in your group's Activity page, the Message Activity log should show your attempts to send to the +owner address. The entries would read like:

name <email address> sent message "Subject" to owners date/time

If entries like that are not showing up that means the problem is on the receiving side of Groups.io - either you misspelled the +owner address or there's a bug in how it is being handled for your group. When you sent your test messages, did you get any form of bounce or erorr notice back in your email interface (the one you sent from)?

If those entries are there, then the problem is on the sending side: either Groups.io didn't forward the +owner messages to you, or your email service misdirected them somehow.

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

Frances,

As you said, it is in Subscription page for each group you belong to
- after going to Subscription, click on Advanced Preferences (near
the bottom of the page). It opens up a new menu and at the bottom are
the controls for Owner Email.
In mine the moderator notices, and the Owner Email option, are below the Advanced Preferences drop-down, but outside it. That is, I don't have to click on and open up the Advanced Preferences to see it.

Somehow I would have thought it would be in Settings. I guess this
makes sense since it is about your own participation?
Correct.

It is in each mod's Subscription page so that each has their own control for it. Something in the Settings page would be one control for all of the group's mods.

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

I got your message, Duane! Thanks for the test. I'll take your advice about sending to support, though.?

Still mystified,

Barb
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

I'm pretty sure that the Help address just sends a canned response with information about the group. I don't believe that the owner can change any of that (yet?).

Sounds like you should report your owner address problem to [email protected] so Mark can look into it. It may be a glitch in the main/subgroup email system.

Duane
PS I'll send a quick message to it so you can see if it gets through.
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

I had already selected to receive all email in the subscriptions area. I check advanced section and didn't see anything that would affect delivery. This is what I selected:

All Emails
Receive every message that is sent to [email protected].
On the home page, I found these addresses that still don't work:
And I checked my spam box - they are not there. I noticed that when I added a subgroup, "main" showed up in the name of the group. Wondering if that addition changed anything??
Barb?

I sent a test email from another email address that I own in case it didn't go through because I'm sending mail to myself. Weird thought maybe, but I tried it :)
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi

Finally found where I could see the owners¡¯ email address - on the home page of each of my groups.
For example, for this group, go to?
and scroll down to the bottom of the page where all the email addresses for the group are listed.

Also, I found it hard to find the control you mentioned, Shal. (I have mine set already though!) As you said, it is in Subscription page for each group you belong to - after going to Subscription, click on Advanced Preferences (near the bottom of the page). It opens up a new menu and at the bottom are the controls for Owner Email.?
Somehow I would have thought it would be in Settings. I guess this makes sense since it is about your own participation?

Frances



On Jan 27 17, at 3:13 PM, Shal Farley <shals2nd@...> wrote:

Barb,

> I'm testing the email to [email protected] and to
> [email protected]. Neither one comes through to my
> gmail account. What am I missing?

Unlike Yahoo Groups, in each moderator has a subscription option to control receiving messages sent to the owner address.

It is possible that you have yours set to "None" or (from) "Subscribers only". The control is at the bottom of the Subscription page in each group (of which you moderate or own).

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

Barb,

I'm testing the email to [email protected] and to
[email protected]. Neither one comes through to my
gmail account. What am I missing?
Unlike Yahoo Groups, in Groups.io each moderator has a subscription option to control receiving messages sent to the owner address.

It is possible that you have yours set to "None" or (from) "Subscribers only". The control is at the bottom of the Subscription page in each group (of which you moderate or own).

Shal
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

Lena,

I don't think so. I run my own mailserver. I subscribed to feedback
loops of a few large mailbox providers including (in March 2011)
mail.yahoo.com.
I stand corrected, thanks! I got the impression it was new from Mark's comments, but I guess that was just my misunderstanding.

So that does go back directly to Sharon's question: why not Yahoo Groups? Lacking inside knowledge I don't have an answer for whether they never implemented the list-side of the protocol, or whether they used the results to do something less severe than unsubscription.

Interesting.

Shal
Re: Email to group owner not coming through

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Hi

For our travel group and my family groups, the email addresses are different - [email protected]

And this group¡¯s email address is:

So perhaps yours is wrong? Just a guess!

Frances


On Jan 27 17, at 10:25 AM, Barb Suess <barbsuess@...> wrote:

Hi - little help?

I'm testing the email to?[email protected] and to?[email protected]. Neither one comes through to my gmail account. What am I missing?

Many thanks,

Barb
Email to group owner not coming through

 

Hi - little help?

I'm testing the email to?[email protected] and [email protected]. Neither one comes through to my gmail account. What am I missing?

Many thanks,

Barb
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 03:19 pm, Shal Farley wrote:

this "FBL" protocol invented by the email services is
relatively new - much newer than the "Neo" redesign of Yahoo Groups.
I don't think so.
I run my own mailserver. I subscribed to feedback loops of a few large mailbox providers including (in March 2011) mail.yahoo.com. In December 2011 I got yahooMail's feedback loop messages about my messages to a Mailman list. I sent those messages to the exim-users @ exim.org list, a member used yahooMail. perhaps it placed my messages to the Spam folder, the member had read my messages and deleted them from the Spam folder (didn't press NotSpam), I got feedback loop messages because my messages had my domain in "From:" header line (though sent to yahooMail from the exim.org mailserver).
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

 

Phil,

We have started an attempt at this and it is public:

/g/LWIdeas/wiki
Very nice!

I hope to take inspiration from your work when I finally get a round tuit for moving a couple of my own groups from Yahoo to here.

Shal
Re: Non Confirmed Group Members #membership #suggestion

Jeff Powell
 

I found a way to accomplish it that wasn't too bad.

On each page of users, I right clicked on any in the NC state and opened their account info up in new tabs. ?Then I went through each of those and sent the confirmation email again and closed their tab. That let me keep my place in the list and know what I had and hand't handled. Not stellar, but it worked.

Only time will tell if any of those people actually confirm and participate or not.

--jeffp
Re: Userguide for Group Wiki #wiki #howtoguide

Phillip Johnson
 

We have started an attempt at this and it is public:

/g/LWIdeas/wiki

Phil Johnson

2370
Re: Group Members Marking Group Messages As Spam

 

Sharon,

But there were never subscribers unsubscribed on Yahoo. My Yahoo list
was almost 3000 subscribers too.
As I've said, this "FBL" protocol invented by the email services is relatively new - much newer than the "Neo" redesign of Yahoo Groups. So my guess is that there's no one left at Yahoo to implement their side of it.

The "one-click" proposal, if and when adopted, is unlikely to be implemented at Y!Groups either - unless Y!Groups undergoes a revival.

Meanwhile the penalty for not participating in the FBL protocol appears to be that group messages get delayed or rejected ("bounced") with higher probability than they would if the email list is a "good citizen" (in the eyes of the email service).

Now that is one place where the size of the service (not necessarily the individual group) might make a difference. AOL and other email services might carve out policy exceptions for Google Groups, Y!Groups, and other well-known services.

On the other hand, reports of delays or missing messages seem to be endemic to Y!Groups. It could be that Y!Groups are in fact suffering from the email services' "penalty" for sending spam.

But as I think about it hasn¡¯t happened since shortly after I
transferred the list.
The situation may have improved. Or the members may have learned "don't do that" or may have switched email services.

But I¡¯m thinking of transferring other lists on which this would be a
problem. More important that people not miss messages.
In that case Groups.io is doing the right thing by attempting to maintain a good reputation in the eyes of the email services.

Or put the other way: better that the members learn "don't do that", or choose a better email service, than have everyone suffer from sporadic message delay and loss.

Shal
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