Ro,

This is kind of a deal break on doing the "whole group transfer".
People dont read instructions, dont want to go thru that hassle, will
get frustrated and upset.

It may go smoother than you think. If your group members largely read and post by email, without needing the visit the group site, then they are all set. They needn't visit Groups.io, needn't read anything, needn't set anything.

Even those that want to access the group's web pages may fare perfectly well. Several in my groups have.

Especially if they just plow on without reading instructions too carefully they are likely to get it done -- I think the ones that will have trouble will be primarily the cautious types that read the instructions minutely and give up if the instructions don't say precisely what they expect.

Please let us know when a better mechanism will be put in place.

That's up to Mark, but you'll undoubtedly hear about it here.

That said, I think the transfer flow is easier (for the member) than joining cold, or accepting an invite.

I was planning on moving my Yahoo group by the end of the month. I am a
member of Helens CKD group, and IO seems to be working just fine for us
in that group, but I do remember setting up membership was a royal pain.

I'm puzzled that you think so. I don't recall there being any trouble, but then I was fully expecting to create a password for access to my groups. Can you recall what points particularly troubled you? I'd like to add anything helpful I can to the wiki.

One source of confusion is just how much of the web site one can access without a password. Public information (such as most of a group's home page) yes, members-only information no.

-- Shal

Brenda,

I wrote:

Until Mark gets around to clarifying this, tell them that to set a
password on their account they'll need to use the "password reset"
feature.

In fact, any and all of these bits of advice would be good things to add to a customized "Welcome" message, so the members get them first thing.

Let's collect advice about transferring from Yahoo Groups in GMF's wiki. All are welcome to contribute (remember, like the messages archive, GMF's wiki is publicly viewable):
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Transfer-from-Yahoo-Groups

-- Shal

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Brenda,

Being Subscribed by you registered my email address with Groups.io,
which locked me out of registering it myself. And I couldn't Log In
because I didn't know my own password:

Actually, at that point his account didn't have a password. Only the email address.

If anyone else asks, the trick is to try to Log In, then click the Lost
Password button and "reset" it from the resulting email.

That is the intended mechanism for creating a password on a new account. Unfortunately the terminology isn't clear about that.

Any suggestions to make for other people who might transfer and run into
the same problems?

Until Mark gets around to clarifying this, tell them that to set a password on their account they'll need to use the "password reset" feature.

-- Shal

Brenda,

Quoting Olivia:>>It seems that "private archives" is not the same as
"private group" in the yahoo sense. Here it just means that the old
posts are not viewable by non-members. Is that correct?<<

Shal wrote:>>Correct.<<

Sorry to be replying to a December post, but don't you mean ALL posts
are not viewable by non-members? Not just old ones?

You are correct. A better choice of words might have been "archived posts" or "the messages archive".

-- Shal

Brenda,

Okay, John and I checked out MM's actual settings, and here is how it is
set up. It is set up as New Users are Moderated.

Problem is, there's nothing ever to indicate that they are ever
UNMODERATED by the system.

Yahoo Groups don't have that feature, but Groups.io does.

Therefore to me, that seems like New Users Are Moderated = Moderated
group. Because that is the default, and the default doesn't decide to
unmoderate anyone, only I do.

No, if it meant that then there'd be no practical difference between it and "Moderated". The reality is that:

"Moderated for new members" means "Unmoderated, except for new members and non-members"

So please help me understand how the default in there could still be
unmoderated, when nothing unmoderated them but me???

The confusion is over the application of the word "default". And that's why I hate the way Yahoo Groups has this control set up - it conflates two unrelated things:

1) The initial (or "default") posting privilege applied to a new member, and
2) The group's general (or "default") moderation policy.

The precisely stated meanings of a Yahoo Group's Message Moderation settings are:

Moderated:
----------
Joining members are assigned the initial posting privilege "Default Group Policy",
Moderated for members whose posting privilege is set to "Default Group Policy",
Moderated for non-members (only applies if non-members are allowed to post).

Unmoderated:
----------
Joining members are assigned the initial posting privilege "Default Group Policy",
Unmoderated for members whose posting privilege is set to "Default Group Policy",
Unmoderated for non-members (only applies if non-members are allowed to post).

Moderated for new members:
--------------------------
Joining members are assigned the initial posting privilege "Override - posts are moderated",
Unmoderated for members whose posting privilege is set to "Default Group Policy",
Moderated for non-members (only applies if non-members are allowed to post).


In Groups.io these same effects are controlled by two separate checkboxes plus one drop-list control (on the Settings page):

Moderated
---------
If checked messages from members set to "Default group policy" are moderated; otherwise they are unmoderated.

New Users Moderated
-------------------
If checked joining members are assigned the initial posting privilege "Override: new user moderated"; otherwise they are assigned "Default group policy".

Unmoderate after
----------------
If enabled, causes members with the posting privilege "Override: new user moderated" to be changed to "Default group policy" when the count of approved posts is reached for that member.

That's the other weird thing. Even when I changed the setting it was
still override.

Only because you (mistakenly) selected an override setting instead of "Default Group Policy".

Again though, default wouldn't have made them unmoderated, because
default didn't know how to define a new user or not. Wouldn't default
have to have been unmoderated to start with to do that? Owls are SO
confused!

Owl didn't understand that in a Yahoo Group "Moderated for new members" means "unmoderated for members set to use the group default". Hopefully Owl can understand that now.

In a Yahoo Group, it takes a moderator to decide when the member is no longer "New", and change the member's posting privilege accordingly.

In Groups.io a moderator can do it manually, but there is also the "Unmoderate after" control that can be enabled to do it automatically.

-- Shal

On Sun, Dec 6, 2015 Shal Farley wrote:

Quoting Olivia:>>It seems that "private archives" is not the same as "private group" in the yahoo sense. Here it just means that the old posts are not viewable by non-members. Is that correct?<<

Shal wrote:>>Correct.<<

Sorry to be replying to a December post, but don't you mean ALL posts are not viewable by non-members? Not just old ones?

Trying to sort this one out.

Brenda

Okay Shal,

I copied over parts of the post from Beta to here, so we can continue the discussion on Moderation and how it works both in Yahoo and in groups.io.

Owl wrote:>>Hmmm. Help me understand this? In MM, everyone who joined was allowed in without approval, but stayed on moderation until cleared to post. Default for the group, I thought, was moderated?<<

Shal wrote:>>The group control for message moderation in Yahoo Groups is slightly different from that in Groups.io, so bear with me.Your MM Yahoo Group is set to "Messages from new members require approval." In a Groups.io group this would be the equivalent of leaving the "Moderated" checkbox unchecked, and checking the "New Users Moderated" box.<<

Okay, John and I checked out MM's actual settings, and here is how it is set up.
It is set up as New Users are Moderated.

Problem is, there's nothing ever to indicate that they are ever UNMODERATED by the system. Therefore to me, that seems like New Users Are Moderated = Moderated group. Because that is the default, and the default doesn't decide to unmoderate anyone, only I do.

I found one entry that was put on default in the entire list, (might check again), and I'm pretty sure I didn't do that, because I always unmoderated the user once they posted a legit post...with the exceptions of those that I kept on permanent moderation.

So please help me understand how the default in there could still be unmoderated, when nothing unmoderated them but me???

Shal wrote:>>So no, the default in MM is that members' posts are generally not moderated. However, when a member joins their Posting Privilege is set to "Override - posts are moderated". Thus new members are moderated until you change that setting.<<

That's the other weird thing. Even when I changed the setting it was still override. It then said Override - Posts aren't moderated. Again though, default wouldn't have made them unmoderated, because default didn't know how to define a new user or not. Wouldn't default have to have been unmoderated to start with to do that? Owls are SO confused!

Shal wrote:>>You might have cleared them to post either be selecting "Default Group Policy" (which I recommend) or by selecting "Override - posts are not moderated" (which I generally recommend against).<<

But that was the only way I knew to do it, because default policy said new members are moderated, and didn't show me a way to make it aware when someone was no longer new. And no one ever told me differently, about how it worked.

Shal wrote:>>In your Yahoo Group, if you clear members to post by changing their Posting Privilege to "Default Group Policy" then they are unmoderated so long as the group's setting is either "Unmoderated" or "Moderated for new members" (which implicitly means unmoderated for "cleared" members).<<

Once again though, how would the group know they were no longer new, or cleared?

Shal wrote:>>This very confusion is one reason why I dislike Yahoo Groups' use of a single three-way radio button control for both the group's default policy and the initial setting of new members. In Groups.io those are separate checkboxes, which I feel is much clearer.<<

Owl wrote:>>Sorry, but that REALLY confused me...if you'd rather answer me in MMSanctuary, feel free...<<

Shal wrote:>>I thought about it, but confusion on this point is not uncommon among Yahoo Groups moderators (at least judging by the questions I've fielded in the moderator help groups). So I figured that since many of beta@'s members are migrating from Yahoo Groups, it might be worthwhile to highlight how Groups.io's controls are clearer for this purpose than Yahoo Groups'.<<

Okay, that makes sense.

Shal wrote:>>And also to highlight why one should always prefer "Default Group Policy" over the unmoderated override: it allows you to temporarily switch the group's policy to moderated to squelch a flame war. If some members are instead set to the unmoderated override then you have to squelch each of those members individually - a much more arduous task in a large active group.

If you want to discuss this further, perhaps we should take it over to the groups.io GMF.<<

Done. I'm here. Help me understand it, because I simply don't. Sorry. :(

Brenda

My transferred members in my test group had the same issue. They were only allowed to 'change' their password but not given an opportunity to create one. (They actually were creating one, but the UI was misleading and confused them.)

As Shal said, Mark has been working on the joining issues. I was planning on waiting for them to be resolved, but very recently Yahoo has been so flukey that I might just jump in before thst and transfer sooner rather than later. I figure I can explain away these issues to my members.
J

Sent from my iPhone

Xaun Loc wrote:

Yahoo routes everything inbound and outbound through a myriad of
task-specific servers. It is entirely possible for ONE server to do
something weird for a while.

Today's troubles seem to have affected a wide area, maybe all geographic areas to a varied degree.

No matter: the good news is that Y!G didn't "finally bite the dust". Yet.

I'm closing this thread because Yahoo problems are essentially off topic here in GMF@ of groups.io.

-- Shal
GMF owner

Hey everyone,

A member whom I transferred from a Yahoo Group to an io.group using Mark's transfer method, had this problem:
***
12/31/15

Hi Brenda,

Just to let you know that I struggled to join Groups.io at first.

Being Subscribed by you registered my email address with Groups.io, which locked me out of registering it myself. And I couldn’t Log In because I didn’t know my own password: remember Yahoo uses two-stage validation.

If anyone else asks, the trick is to try to Log In, then click the Lost Password button and ‘reset’ it from the resulting email.

David
***

Any suggestions to make for other people who might transfer and run into the same problems?

Brenda
Nightowl >8#

Yahoo routes everything inbound and outbound through a myriad of task-specific servers. It is entirely possible for ONE server to do something weird for a while. In general, Yahoo doesn't worry about individual servers being screwed up because of the way they constantly rotate using different servers. That is one of the reasons you will occasionally get a batch of Yahoo Group emails that are as much as a week late by the time the system catches up with itself.

I got that same message at one point today, did the same thing immediately and it worked. Most computers and online services have down time and wonkiness from time to time.



Sincerely,
David Dillard
Temple University
(215) 204 - 4584
jwne@...

Same problem here in Michigan off and on all today

J_catlady,

Yahoo groups has been completely down for the past hour or so, with this
message, one I've never seen before.

I've had no problems reaching Yahoo Groups pages this morning or afternoon. It sounds like you're having some "internet weather" - a local or regional outage, or problems with Yahoo's edge servers.

-- Shal

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