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Chris,

The problem reduces to "/how do we manage those whose email provider
decides that an email incoming from Groups.io is spam/". Nothing more,
and nothing less.

Actually, something more is required. That email service must subsequently decide to send an FBL report to Groups.io that cites the message or member.

The controversial situations come about when an email service decides to send such a report based on 1) their own decision to deliver the message to the member's Spam folder and 2) the subsequent failure of the member to mark the message as "Not Spam".

So in that sense, a member's management of their email folders - specifically their Spam folder - is relevant to this conversation. One way a member can avoid being unsubscribed for spam is to be vigilant about periodically inspecting their Spam folder and marking as "Not Spam" any group message.

Another way is for the member to choose an email service that doesn't do this.

I am seeking a solution for those who find themselves faced with a
problem they didn't even know could arise.

Which is pretty much every member who uses such an email service, apart from those few who've been following along here and/or in beta. Or have been informed by a pro-active group manager.

I should admit to a caveat on condition (2) above: that's based on reports from some people I consider reliable observers and was specifically in reference to AOL. I don't know for a fact that there aren't any email services that rely on condition (1) alone. My sense is that if that were the case we'd have a much larger incidence of these unsubscriptions from those specific email services than we apparently do.

Shal


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On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 10:51 am, Shal Farley wrote:

Which ties in nicely with your theme that there are many simple but wrong solutions

Another one - possibly not relevant here - is the "To be certain of receiving emails from us put our address in your Contacts List", or words to that effect. I daresay it would work if I (for example) put that address in my Servicer Provider's email contact list, but I don't use my SP's email interface; I use Outlook and I would expect that putting the sender's address in that Contacts section would achieve precisely nothing.?

Grrr...

Chris

Is there a list and description of search operators that can be used in groups.io?

We have one list that has a huge archive now and simple searches return too many messages.

If the operators are standard, is there a list elsewhere?

Sharon
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Sharon Villines
[email protected]

We haven't changed anything.? Everyone here is a user, just like you.? I don't see anything in any of the recent changelogs that might have caused a change and it doesn't look like there have been any changes to this group's settings.? Your best bet is to supply all the details you can in a message to support.

Duane
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On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 08:59 am, Bill Hickey wrote:

While initially I thought the "nomail" option was a nice compromise, I think forcing the user to RTFM (Read The F'ing Manual) and keep his/her own house in order is actually the better solution, even if it means that some of your subscribers will leave in frustration.

Bob; a lot, or even a great deal, of what you said was probably perfectly true, but very little of it applies to the problem that we are trying to address. I don't doubt for a moment that some people don't spend enough time "managing" their email service, but those people are not the problem. Neither, for that matter, are "bouncing" emails.

The problem reduces to "how do we manage those whose email provider decides that an email incoming from Groups.io is spam". Nothing more, and nothing less. If members / email users can't keep their own houses in order, then that's their look out; fair enough. But it is not those who are at the centre of this; anyone can have an email marked as spam by their email provider, and as things were the messages sent out by Groups.io were not entirely helpful. That has improved, but a further improvement in that messaging is hoped for and has been requested.

The outstanding question now is whether the current policy of unsubscribing those affected* might be better with one of putting them on "no email". You argued You set them to "nomail" and YOU DON'T KNOW for sure WHY they're on "nomail", but that is not true. The Activity Log makes a clear distinction between those who "leave" and those who are "dismissed". (FWIW I have just double - checked) If the Activity Log had an entry so - and - so was set to No email because a message to them was marked as spam as an alternative to summary dismissal then it would be patently obvious why the individual concerned was set to "no email".

I have no solution for those who because of indifference, carelessness, or sheer stupidity mismanage their email account. Neither am I seeking one. I am seeking a solution for those who find themselves faced with a problem they didn't even know could arise.

* Which is email - provider dependent, based on the existence of a feedback loop.

Chris

Bill,

SOMETIMES the reason people's email bounces is that they died, ...

Note that this topic isn't about messages being rejected ("bounced") by the member's email service. That's handled through the bounce handling mechanism.
/static/help#bouncing

This topic is about what happens after a member's email service sends a report to Groups.io that the member has marked a group message as spam.

Some email services (including Yahoo Mail) even advise marking a message as Spam as an alternative to unsubscribing from a list. Which ties in nicely with your theme that there are many simple but wrong solutions.

I think Groups.io's response would not be controversial at all, except that certain email service issue such reports even when the receiving member took no such action, but merely failed to mark as "Not Spam" a group message that the service itself delivered to the member's Spam folder.

Shal


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Richard,

But it seems like Groups.io should send a reply to ALL when REPLY TO
GROUP is enabled.

The Reply To option for the group can be set to either "Group" or "Group and Sender". In either case Groups.io puts the correct thing in the "Reply-To" header field of outbound messages: just the group posting address for "Group", or both the group posting address and the posting member's address for "Group and Sender".

The issue, for some members, is whether their email interface obeys the header field (which is a standard header field, and so ought to be used), and/or whether its default behavior is to reply solely to the sending address or to sender plus all recipient addresses.

Shal


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Yes, they bot exist in W10 but, why not use an attachment instead of using TXT only.
Arno,
I am not using txt. And I explained in this subject already, why we do not want attachments.
Victoria

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On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 08:58 am, toki wrote:

BTInternet is a complex issue.

BT handles email inhouse for some of their subscribers.

Are you certain about that? I thought that CPCloud was their other option, but I am willing to be wrong about it.

Looking again at your comment above...BTInternet email is a complex issue. There; FTFY.

Chris

I saw you made some changes in html. I now am not getting html the way I was in incredimail.
I was wondering what can be done? It is coming out very dark and without images.

My group really likes to send html in stationary etc.

I will test a few more but this could be a problem for my group. It was working great until today.?

Anita

[subject modified by moderator. Was "html"]

Paul:
Yes I am using my rocketmail address account.
It is really a Yahoo account because Yahoo bought rocketmail many years ago.
They also gave me the r.rm as a username for whatever.
I never use it.

But it seems like Groups.io should send a reply to ALL when REPLY TO GROUP is enabled.
Suppose the recipient gets two copies. Payback for causing me a bunch of trouble.

One "offender" has deleted himself and I Invited him after that, using a different e-mail address.

Thanks, Richard

Yes, they bot exist in W10 but, why not use an attachment instead of using TXT only.

For every problem, there are literally dozens of simple and easy to understand solutions that are usually wrong.? In the case of setting someone to "nomail" - while it is, to most users, a simple and straightforward option, here's something that may have been overlooked:? SOMETIMES the reason people's email bounces is that they died, or they went into hospital for an extended stay, or something else happened (i.e., they changed email providers) to them or maybe their inboxes filled up and won't take any more mail.? You set them to "nomail" and YOU DON'T KNOW for sure WHY they're on "nomail" - and your subscriber file then becomes littered with invalid email addresses and you lose track of the people in your group.? Also, some people simply change email service providers because THEY get "too much spam" (and forget to tell all the lists and friends they have about the change).? So, they remember you as a great group, and they join with the new email address.? Then you have TWO subscriptions for one person - one of which is no longer valid, and the other which may stay valid for a while.? Why do I say "for a while?"? Because after doing this stuff for probably 30+ years, I can tell you that the reason people get spam is overwhelmingly a product of their "browsing habits."? If all they do is change the email address and not change browsing habits, it won't be long before that new email address starts giving them more "spam" just like the old one and they will change email address yet again.

While initially I thought the "nomail" option was a nice compromise, I think forcing the user to RTFM (Read The F'ing Manual) and keep his/her own house in order is actually the better solution, even if it means that some of your subscribers will leave in frustration.? If they do, they'll leave other places in frustration as well because they simply do not want to be bothered learning how to interact with email.? And, instant messaging and other social media options have their own problems as well.

Bill Hickey
Boulder, CO

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 08:44 pm, Frances wrote:

I poked around to see where I made the setting.?
In the top right (your name), choose Account.
Then move to the other side of the page and click on Identity.
For each of your groups, there is an edit button.
Change Profile Privacy.
Update Group Profile.

You can also get there via Subscription->Group Profile->Edit Group Profile->Profile Privacy

Bruce

On 04/07/2018 10:49 AM, Paul Ohio USA via Groups.Io wrote:

I'm not surprised at the btinternet getting unsubscribed, must be one of those still serviced by Verizon/Yahoo.

BTInternet is a complex issue.

BT handles email inhouse for some of their subscribers.
Yahoo/Verizon handles email for some of their subscribers.

jonathon

On Sat, Apr 7, 2018 at 04:30 am, Paul Ohio USA wrote:

Is the list of the Email Providers that are known to cause Spam problems posted somewhere and if so, where?

Yes; see the "work - in - progress" wiki at /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam, but please note that the list is not exactly definitive.Scroll down to Service Providers. ?

Regards,

Chris

On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 10:48 am, Tony Moody wrote:

May I suggest that the sentence be :

Please note that this "marking as spam" may have been done either by you, or by your Email Service Provider.?

I've left the sentence as I wrote it for two reasons; firstly I cannot see any meaningful distinction between my original and your amendment, and secondly (and more importantly in my view) I had already submitted it as a formal suggestion on the beta group and I didn't want to risk annoying Mark by further tinkering for which I could see no obvious reason. He might already be a little peeved at being asked to do another change so soon after the previous rewording.

In other news, we had a "btinternet" user unsubscribed yesterday so the inclusion of that provider in the "risk list" would seem to have been appropriate.

Chris

I poked around to see where I made the setting.?
In the top right (your name), choose Account.
Then move to the other side of the page and click on Identity.
For each of your groups, there is an edit button.
Change Profile Privacy.
Update Group Profile.

Frances

This feature has just been added. See?

Note that it only works if the both the sending and the receiving user have their group profiles set up to allow other subscribers to "see" them in the Directory.

Bruce