OK I've put a first draft into the location linked above. I'm not entirely happy with it yet, but at least it's a step in the right direction. (I hope) I have deliberately not included copies of the emails currently sent out to members / Owner & Moderators in the hope that they might just be changed before too long.

While working on it I found myself wondering if a better response to a spam notification from an ESP might be to switch the member over to "web access only / no emails" rather than rather brutally cancelling their membership.The "restore" function could remain in place.

Chris

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how? can? i change? ? the? ? ?img/default.img

for the? ?group?

wunder,

I’m glad to help with a Wiki page on this. It certainly is a
frequently asked question.

Happy to have your help and Chris'. Here's a place to start:
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Removed-for-spam

I didn't have time to put any thought into it yet, and I'll figure out where to link it on the wiki home page later. Or maybe it will fit into the Help page mockup. Nice thing about a wiki, it's easy to change your mind.

Shal


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Daniel,

So, changing the Admin->Settings->Message Policies as suggested by
Bruce only affects people using the groups.io website message page
instead of their Yahoo or other inbox to reply to messages?

It also affects what Reply To links appear in digests and I think those in the footer of individual messages.

Groups.io does what it can to influence the behavior of the member's email interface Reply function by use of the Reply-To header field, which is created to implement the group's Reply To setting, in the Message Policies section of the Settings page.

Groups.io staff doesn't monitor this forum, which I thought is like a
support group for group operators?

That is what we are, but not operated by (or even populated by) Groups.io staff.

I created GMF here on Groups.io as a sister to Y!GMF, which held a similar position within Yahoo Groups: created and run by users, but (one of four or five) formerly recommended in the Yahoo Groups help pages.

We obtained our recommended status at Groups.io well after our founding here, when Mark could no longer keep up with the traffic in general questions posted to beta. So the recommendation in the Help page and on the beta home page, and his absence here, are a deliberate "off loading" of questions that can be answered without access to site code or private user data.

Well, at least there are enough "unofficial" experts here with good
answers for those of us with questions!

It isn't always easy or fun to do the research and/or wordsmithing needed to provide a quality answer, and I'm deeply thankful for the many others here who pitch in when they can.

Shal


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I was mystified about exactly the same thing. How does it know someone put the mail in a folder?

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 11:40 am, Shal Farley wrote:

2) that a member used their email interface's Reply-to-all function and replied to both the group and to the sender - and subsequently the sender may have replied to the message that arrived directly rather than the copy that arrived via the group.

I see. That may be what happened, then. Human error is a good, simple explanation, especially considering some of the group members involved, LOL

So, changing the Admin->Settings->Message Policies as suggested by Bruce only affects people using the groups.io website message page instead of their Yahoo or other inbox to reply to messages??

Groups.io staff doesn't monitor this forum, which I thought is like a support group for group operators? Well, at least there are enough "unofficial" experts here with good answers for those of us with questions!

Thank you Shal, and everyone else, for your helpful information and advice!

-Daniel

Barb B,

I have to admit this thread has totally confused me. But I did want
to ask one really stupid question - why does Groups.io care if the
messages from here are going to someone's spam folder?

It is not a stupid question. In fact it is one that Mark has struggled with.

Why not just leave it, is there some negative effect to Groups.io of
having messages go into someone's spam folder?

That's exactly right. The reason is a concern that if Groups.io were to continue sending messages to that address then the email service provider might "punish" Groups.io by (more frequently) relegating other members' messages to their spam boxes.

The key thing to remember is that this only happens because the member's email service provider went to the trouble to specifically notify Groups.io that the message(s) had been marked as spam. Other email services (such as Gmail) don't notify senders of such markings, so their users never get unsubscribed this way.

Shal


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The messages in question involve people who are using their online Yahoo mail inboxes, not the groups.io website messages page.?

The group message received in their Yahoo inbox has a return address of the person who posted the original message to the group, instead of the group.io address.

The members replying to the message in their Yahoo inbox see the subject line is "Re: the group topic" and don't notice that the To: line is a private email address instead of the group's address. Then if the person receiving that reply responds back, that response goes to the other members' Yahoo address, and now the circle is established between the two unsuspecting members, chatting or arguing back and forth unaware that they are communicating directly rather than through the group. LOL

But anyway, we'll change the Admin settings and see if that fixes it.

Thanks!

-Daniel

Shal; thanks for that. Anyway as you have probably spotted I have transferred this to the beta group so it is now simply a question of "wait and see".

I sincerely hope some alterations can be made to the notifications because IMHO it will reduce the confusion that arises and make managing the overall situation just a little bit easier for both Owners / Moderators and Members, particularly for any groups that migrate from Yahoo in the future. Groups.io is a much nicer platform than Yahoo and if it can be made better still then so much the better. By all accounts Yahoo was completely impossible to negotiate with over matters like this.

Chris

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Hi,

I have to admit this thread has totally confused me.? But I did want to ask one really stupid question - why does Groups.io care if the messages from here are going to someone's spam folder?? Why unsubscribe them?? Why not just leave it, is there some negative effect to Groups.io of having messages go into someone's spam folder?? Again sorry if this has been covered, or if it is a dumb question.

Barb B

Thank you, Bruce and Frances, for your quick replies. We'll change those Admin settings as suggested and see if that fixes it.

-Daniel

Daniel,

Over the past few days it's come to my attention that when a group
member with a Yahoo email address replies to a group message from
another member, sometimes the reply message is being sent to the email
address of the person who posted the original message instead of to
the group's groups.io address.

That implies to me either:

1) that in those cases Yahoo Mail ignored the "Reply-To" header field sent in the outbound Groups.io message, or

2) that a member used their email interface's Reply-to-all function and replied to both the group and to the sender - and subsequently the sender may have replied to the message that arrived directly rather than the copy that arrived via the group.

I think (2) may be the more likely (despite my misgivings about Yahoo Mail) because some email interfaces can be set to have "reply to all" be the default reply behavior.

I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but I have noticed
that, for members with @yahoo.com email addresses, their address in
groups.io emails appears as "their_name=yahoo.com @ groups.io" instead
of "their_name @ yahoo.com"

It doesn't. The mangling of addresses From certain email services (Yahoo Mail included) relates to an anti-spoofing protocol known as DMARC. It is a long story of (IMO) stupidity.
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/2923

Is this problem with misdirected group mail from Yahoo email addresses
known to the groups.io staff?

I think the topic has come up on beta in the past, but I don't recall if it was related specifically to Yahoo Mail.

If not, would someone please look into it?

No one from Groups.io staff reads GMF. You could bring it up in the beta group, but I doubt there's much Groups.io can do about a problem occurring at Yahoo Mail, if that's the case, or a problem based on the members' email settings and/or choices.

Shal


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Chris,

From: [email protected] <[email protected]>
...
Cheers,
The Groups.io Team

I see the mixed message there.

Like Duane, I suspect the From names the group admins in part to direct any reply there. It may also be the case that, despite group messages having gone to that member's spam folder, that the group-specific address may be more likely to be delivered to the member's Inbox than a generic groups.io address.

secondly it reads /Because your email service reported to us that you
have marked one or more messages from [email protected]
as spam/ when in fact this was simply not the case;

This may sound weaselly, but that likely is exactly the case. That is, it is what "your email service reported to us" - the fact that certain email services falsely report their own marking as if it were the user's action is the problem. Note in the Wikipedia article "... by which a mailbox provider (MP) forwards the complaints originating from their users ...".

Mark's out for this is "If this was a mistake ..." -- anyone's mistake. Because it is almost certainly the member's mistake some fraction of the time, the cases that get reported here notwithstanding.

That said, your rewrite of "you have marked" with "has been marked" is probably a good way to cover the ambiguity.

Shal


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Did by chance the third person reply privately instead of to the group?

Bruce

P.S. This is why I have private messaging (and message editing) disabled. It seems to only lead to confusion.

Also, sometimes you will get the Yahoo "purple banner of death" even when the invitation went through. Best to attempt to invite two people...one with an address you can check afterward. Sometimes doing a hard refresh (ctrl-F5) beforehand will help it go through, too.

One thing about Y!G...you can never be sure what's going on, and if there's anyone on the other end they seem to spend a lot of time asleep at the switch. Good luck!

Bruce

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What do you mean by "message delivery problems?" Message landing in spam, bouncing, disappearing into thin air?

Bruce

To disable this, go to Admin->Settings->Message Policies. Pull down the menu and select "Reply to Group," and check the box below that says "Remove other reply options." Be sure to save your changes.

Bruce?

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 07:55 am, Duane wrote:

Obviously I can't be sure of Mark's thinking on this, but suspect that it shows as coming from the group to add a bit of authenticity, as well as someone to contact for assistance.?

I see the point you are making here, but would state that with the Help pages not providing any information about this "feature" a Group Owner & Moderators are not well placed to provide assistance without a great deal of delving along the lines I am pursuing, which would turn out to be a variant of reinventing the wheel.

It's the actual Email Service Provider where they are being marked as spam, either by a filter or a user.? Many folks, including me, have an Internet Service Provider that is different from our ESP.? Because of that, I'd reword that part of the message as:

"Because your Email Service Provider reported to us that one or more messages from [GroupName]@groups.io has been marked as spam you have been automatically removed from the group.? Please note that this "marking as spam" may have been done by your Email Service Provider and not by you. We suggest that you check your spam box as soon as possible to see if your Email Service Provider has diverted legitimate messages into it."

I agree fully with you on this point; I got halfway there by deliberately not saying "Internet Service Provider" but your suggestion of inserting "Email" makes perfect sense. It might be prudent to also insert (which might not be the same as your ISP) at a suitable location as well.

Joining the beta group and posting this as a suggestion would get it in front of Mark where he would be more apt to change the wording of the message.

OK you've convinced me. I'll do that and see what happens, not least because I don't want to try and prepare a "Help Note" which has to be changed soon thereafter because the notifications have been altered. (And yes; I have started!)

Regards,

Chris