Chris,

Although I will not pretend to have researched this exhaustively I
came away with the conclusion that (a) the Index in the pdf version is
better, and (b) the lack of section numbers in the single page version
is a weakness.

It is, but I've been assuming that the single-page version is a stop-gap that allows the use of browser search capability. It will be much less interesting once the primary (multi-page) version has a dedicated search feature. Maybe it will even be taken down at that point (I actually hope not).

... if there there are to be two different formats then IMHO their
appearance should - insofar as is practicable - be the same.

That's an ideal, but I think the three formats that are there right now serve different purposes, and their formatting distinctions go with the use case.

An argument against section numbers in the online version has been made, noting that those numbers "rot" as the document content evolves: Add a new section and that changes the numbering of ensuing sections at the same level. That kind of behavior is a poor experience for an online document that is supposed to be revised as needed. The text that you read in section 1.3 just now might be in section 1.4 seconds after you cite it.

On the other hand, in print (PDF) documents that kind of "rot" is integral to the semi-permanent format. This kind of document is like a physical book: for an accurate citation you must include the edition of the document as well as the section number.

For online documents some form of Permalink mechanism would be my preference - a link icon with each section header, and the underlying URL unchanging. The old Help pages have that (they appear when you hover to the left of the header), but only for the top-level headers:
/static/help

I'd make them always visible, and on all header levels. Possibly over to the right edge, more like message number permalinks.

I'd also make their URLs as short as practical, even to the point of using a serial number for each section rather than a mnemonic. That is, i'd rather see something like:
/helpcenter/membersmanual/539
than a monstrosity like:
/helpcenter/membersmanual/1/understanding-groups-io-accounts/setting-account-preferences-and-viewing-account-information#Setting-up-two-factor-authentication
but that's a battle I'm likely to lose.

Shal


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On 2020-04-18 at 5:17:52 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

That would appear to be at variance with what is written in the new
*Members' Manual* : section *4.4.5* (pages 19 & 20 of the pdf version)
states:

Nice find. I've written a quick note about this inconsistency to
[email protected] [1].

[1]:

--
Christopher W. <lists@...>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 04:45 PM, Chris Jones wrote:

Overall I much prefer the way the pdf version is presented;

Agreed, and in the comments I have posted on docs about the manuals I have always tried to include a reference based upon the PDF document. I think it makes items much easier to find.

Andy

On 2020-04-18 at 5:17:52 AM, Chris Jones via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

Perhaps it's a case of 2FA at your own risk..!

Agreed! 2FA is not for everyone in every situation.

If it helps others, here's how I mitigate such risks (the trade-offs that I
make) so I can get the benefits of 2FA:

When I configure 2FA on an account, I print out two copies of the QR
code/shared secret and the recovery codes. I keep one copy in a file folder
at home and one in my safe deposit box.

If I lose access to my 2FA device, I can scan the QR codes on another
device.

My threat model include fires, random hackers on the Internet (mostly
credential leaks/stuffing), a mild amount of targeting hacking, and my
incapacitation. It does not include family members, lawsuits & the like, or
someone willing to break in to my house/safe deposit box and carefully steal
my 2FA backups.

--
Christopher W. <lists@...>

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:33 PM, JeffH wrote:

I’ve received complaints from members that they missed scheduled events due to the reminders I configured being sent out until after the event takes place.

My guess is that they don't have the correct time zone set for their account.? Since the recent change, , you can check to see if that's it and have them change it.? I'm not aware of anyone else having the problem.

It could also be their email provider delaying delivery of the messages.

Duane
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On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 05:07 PM, Duane wrote:

Based on Nina's comments about the changes from yesterday (several messages on the docs group), I believe this is still a work in progress and fine tuning like this will get done.

One has to hope, but at the same time might it be worth pointing the differences rather than the existing formats remaining by default?

For now let's see if others have anything to add.

Chris

Hello,

I’ve received complaints from members that they missed scheduled events due to the reminders I configured being sent out until after the event takes place.?

I have a weekly event on my Groups.io calendar and send out 2 reminders - one 24 hours before the event and one 1 hour before the event.?

This week, neither of the updates were sent out until AFTER the event took place. They were sent out within a few minutes of each other when they were finally sent.?

Is this something that Groups.io is aware of?

Thank you,

-JeffH

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:45 AM, Chris Jones wrote:

Overall I much prefer the way the pdf version is presented; if there there are to be two different formats then IMHO their appearance should - insofar as is practicable - be the same.

I agree that they should use the same 'format' if at all possible, though I can see where "page (d)" wouldn't be of much use in the online version.? I have a repair manual for my car that has different formats for printed and electronic versions.? Makes it difficult to exchange information until I can get my head wrapped around how to switch.

Based on Nina's comments about the changes from yesterday (several messages on the docs group), I believe this is still a work in progress and fine tuning like this will get done.

Duane
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I am starting this topic following a more detailed look at the new Members Manual in connection with the earlier Enter Your Two Factor Authentication Code topic. I am raising it here rather than going direct to the beta docs Subgroup to see if my thoughts are shared by others or if I am just a lone voice.?

At first I looked at the pdf version, and found the section about 2FA very quickly; it is in the index and has a specific section number in the format x.y.z.

For no real reason I then did the same search using the "Single Page" version. 2FA is not individually indexed (although the same text is present once it is found) and there is no section numbering whatsoever. Although I will not pretend to have researched this exhaustively I came away with the conclusion that (a) the Index in the pdf version is better, and (b) the lack of section numbers in the single page version is a weakness.

Imagine two (or more) people trying to investigate something; one reports "I found <whatever> in section a.b.c on page (d)" and the other will say "I can't see any section numbers or page information".

Overall I much prefer the way the pdf version is presented; if there there are to be two different formats then IMHO their appearance should - insofar as is practicable - be the same.?

Do others on here share this view?

Chris

开云体育

I've had emails delayed in arriving back in my InBox, yet they had appeared pretty well immediately in the messages on my groups homepage.
Does it mean in the screen capture below, that groups.io held back my message for 16 hours before it was sent back to me? If so, why did this happen?
Several others were also delayed round the same time, yet one came back straight away.
Thanks
Win

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:25 PM, Christopher Warrington wrote:

Even Groups.io support will refuse to change those settings if you were to
open a support request. From the Account > Security page that Chris
mentioned:

That would appear to be at variance with what is written in the new Members' Manual: section 4.4.5 (pages 19 & 20 of the pdf version) states:

Note: If the authentication code is lost (for example, if a device is reset to factory settings), you will need
to contact Groups.io Support to be able to log in.

(Another note a little above that reads:

Important: Once you enable two-factor authentication, you will not be able to log in to Groups.io
through a social login (Google or Facebook) or by using the Groups.io function to email you a link to log
in.)

Perhaps it's a case of 2FA at your own risk..!

Chris

On 2020-04-17 at 2:03:59 PM, chrisjones12 via groups.io <chrisjones12@...> wrote:

2FA is not something I have used on Groups.io but from the screenshot you
included it is Groups.io's own 2FA that she is encountering , and that
being so it is something that she herself has set up under her Account; it
is not a group - level function. It can be found via *Account > Security*
, and it is not something that you can change for her.

Even Groups.io support will refuse to change those settings if you were to
open a support request. From the Account > Security page that Chris
mentioned:

Groups.io Support cannot restore access to accounts with two-factor
authentication enabled for security reasons. Saving your recovery codes in
a safe place can help keep you from being locked out of your account.

Notice, however, the mention of "recovery codes". When 2FA was enabled for
the account in question, 10 recovery codes were generated. Each code can be
used to fill in the 2FA prompt once. I'd ask this member if they have the
recovery codes around somewhere (e.g., a printout, in a password manager).
If they have the codes, they can use one of the codes to log in and disable
2FA. From your summary, I assume that they won't want to re-enable 2FA. They
_can_ re-enable it, if they want to. Note that if they do, I suspect that
the existing recovery codes will no longer work and that a new set of 10
will be generated and will need to be stored safely.

You may also want to have them check if they're logged in on another device
already. (E.g., a different machine in the house, a work machine) If they
are already logged in, they could try to get the current recovery codes or
to disable 2FA for the account.

Here's what Account > Security > Two-factor Recovery Codes has to say about
them:

Recovery codes can be used to access your account in the event you lose
access to your device and cannot receive two-factor authentication codes.

Treat your recovery codes with the same level of attention as you would
your password! We recommend saving them with a password manager such as
Lastpass or 1Password. Each code can be used only once.

--
Christopher W. <lists@...>

On 2020-04-17 at 10:27:05 AM, Jennifer Christian <jhchristian@...> wrote:

The option of forwarding seems NOT to be possible in Groups.io.?? Why?? I
do realize that enabling wholesale forwarding messages defeats the idea of
a restricted group with a private conversation -- which all of mine are.

Any one of your members who gets messages delivered via email can use their
email client's forward feature to forward the message along.

As to why, you mention one good reason. I can _speculate_ another: a forward
feature would mean that Groups.io would send messages to people who didn't
request them. Aside from invitations to join a group, AFAIK, Groups.io
doesn't send anything to anyone who didn't opt-in. Personally, I wish more
things worked that way.

--
Christopher W. <lists@...>

Jennifer,

In our old Yahoo group, one could forward messages to others.

Not from the Yahoo Group's web pages anytime recently. The option disappeared ages ago (a decade or more) when Yahoo found that spammers were abusing it.

The option of forwarding seems NOT to be possible in Groups.io. Why?
I do realize that enabling wholesale forwarding messages defeats the
idea of a restricted group with a private conversation ...

That's one reason.

* Why don't we have an option to allow members to forward messages?

I thought this was discussed in the beta group ages ago and several considerations raised, including the privacy concern in groups with private archives that you noted.

However my search-fu is failing me at the moment. What I did find was a request for the feature, and an acknowledgement that it had been added to the to-do list:




Shal


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On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 12:44 AM, dave w wrote:

For anyone using basic functions of a phone 2FA is overkill anyway.

It can easily be argued that 2FA is not overkill given the greater likelihood of a 'phone falling into the wrong hands? compared with a desktop or laptop.

That it has been 'deemed' necessary by the tech company is only due to the less than knowedgeable use of devices.

I rather doubt if "the tech company" (which one, BTW?) deemed anything necessary; using Occam's Razor the more likely origin of this problem is the end user herself who may have set it inadvertently.

Chris

Mike,

I'm an owner of a premium group if that makes any difference.

It does:
"Need Help?
... Due to the current volume of support email, we can only answer
messages sent from owners of premium groups at this time.
/helpcenter

Their imports seem to enable back-dating of messages, ...

Yes, it imports messages with the original posting date from each message in the mbox file.

We'd also like to back date the member join dates.

That it does not do, because membership info is not included in mbox files (only messages).

Other than the Easy Yahoo Group Transfer, while it existed, I've never heard of a means to adjust member join dates to match some external membership.

Shal



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Hi all,

This week's change log:


Feel free to reply to this topic if you'd like to comment on the
changes. Or better yet, if you expect a lot of discussion start a new
topic (or rejoin an existing one) about a specific change.

INTERNAL: Changed how we were limiting email sent to some domains, to
use the MX server domain as a key for limiting instead of the
receipient's domain. This will affect all messages to GoDaddy hosted
domains, orange.fr/wanadoo.fr, earthlink/mindspring/netcom and a
couple others. This will hopefully allow us to keep under per-
connection limits imposed by these email service providers and avoid
getting temporarily blocked for trying to send too much email at one
time.

Ah, this should help cut down on the whack-a-mole game some members have had dealing with messages being bounced by their email service. Especially those using custom domains that hadn't been recognized as needing these work-arounds.

CHANGE: Updated the Help Center manuals with updates from Nina.

Also, many updates and corrections to GMF's wiki pages - thanks Nina!



Comments about these others are also welcome:

INTERNAL: Technical debt cleanup of web page templates. An ongoing
process.
API: /downloadarchives was not returning the messages in ascending
date order.
CHANGE: Allow 'list-style-type' styling in user generated content.
CHANGE: Some formatting tweaks to the Member page, including
displaying the member's timezone.
CHANGE: Changed 'Unsubscribe' button in the Subscription page to
'Leave Group' to be more clear.
SYSADMIN: Switched primary database machines because of continuing
(minor) corruption issues.
CHANGE: When viewing a member's information on mobile, changed the nav
buttons at the top to a dropdown instead. Also fixed several
navigation bugs when viewing past members.

Please call out any you find significant.

Shal


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On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 05:58 PM, Terri Carlson #253 wrote:

Another list Owner is currently prevented from taking any action on my claimed message (i.e., from "jumping my claim").? We have tried everything that we can think of to release my claim so that the Owner can complete the reconciliation of the pended message, but have met with no success.? How can we reverse the claim?

The owner will have to go online to process the message.? Once claimed, it can't be done via email.? There's no way to reverse it.

Duane
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hi
For anyone using basic functions of a phone 2FA is overkill anyway.
That it has been 'deemed' necessary by the tech company is only due to the less than knowedgeable use of devices.
Annoying alerts that I dismiss (and I'm a 30 yr veteran of Mac-devices)
regards d