Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Glenn Glazer

I get that. I just don't like being shouted at.

Best,

Glenn

On 6/6/2019 12:56, Larry McElhiney via Groups.Io wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them change case.? (Slight mixing of metaphor.)

?

Sometimes we lose sight of what the audience wants and needs.? Mostly they want to communicate ideas using a Group like this.? If there is a too-rigid structure, they will often just move on.? Ultimately, for everyone we "teach" to do it the "right" way, two or more will come along and do it differently, in my experience.

?

Larry

?

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?
?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

[excess quote and ad removed by moderator]

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17013

Hi

i can reply with a photo from my iPhone. Here’s what it looks like.?

Frances

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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17012

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 08:04 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

It's my responsibility, as a writer, to make sure that what I write can be followed within a self-contained message.?

Though I generally abhor Mission Statements I think people should print that sentence off and pin it on the wall in front of them. Pity it's too long to have as a screen saver.

?When it's a direct response to the last thing said, generally no quoting is necessary,

Although you do apply a caveat to that in your next sentence, by and large I would disagree. Just quoting a sentence from the post to which you are responding usually makes it much clearer to the reader. My preferred usage is the web UI, where is it much easier to refer back to a previous post than finding a previous email, but even then it only needs someone - just one - to put a message between the post to which you are responding and yours to sow uncertainty.

A bit later Glenn Glazer wrote: let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

after that can you address the problem of not using capitals at all; i hate that. On one group I inhabit (not this one!) there are a few members who not only fail to capitalise properly but also dispense with any recognisable punctuation.

Grrr..

Chris </grumpy>

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17011

开云体育

Well, my friend would call me on skype and shout at me the response. That got my attention right quick. Lol! But since that is not an option here, maybe virtual shouting back? JK. I've ben guilty of doing that by accident so I need to watch my own self as well.

Blessings and happy Thursday

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and ?tutorials go
and for hosting options go
to subscribe to the feed click

Our channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 10:57, Glenn Glazer wrote:

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17010

The same Apple Mail app which will not currently connect with Yahoo because of changes in the Yahoo Security.??

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 3:06:03 PM EDT, Ken Kloeber via Groups.Io <KWKloeber@...> wrote:

From Apple support:

"an attachment must be included in the body of an email message sent from the Apple Mail app, the option to add an attachment (as the AOL app does) is currently not available."

effed up, 'eh? Per usual for Apple.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17009

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them change case.? (Slight mixing of metaphor.)

Sometimes we lose sight of what the audience wants and needs.? Mostly they want to communicate ideas using a Group like this.? If there is a too-rigid structure, they will often just move on.? Ultimately, for everyone we "teach" to do it the "right" way, two or more will come along and do it differently, in my experience.

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 3:05:12 PM EDT, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting
subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17008

From Apple support:

"an attachment must be included in the body of an email message sent from the Apple Mail app, the option to add an attachment (as the AOL app does) is currently not available."

effed up, 'eh? Per usual for Apple.

Re: top posting vs bottom posting vs quoting

#17007

开云体育

My output defaults to top quoting. I’ve gotten to like it that way. But do encourage people to strip excess quoting.

?

~ Bob S

?

On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami

?

Actually, it is easier for screen reader users to top post. It makes it easier for us to read stuff right away so top posting in the blind community is more than helpful. I've noticed that since about 2001 when I first started dealing with email and news groups etc.
Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Glenn Glazer

#17006

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17005

...and for our individual groups:

The?Attachments?drop – down menu provides the following options:

Allow
Bounce
Strip
Moderate

So there might be no attachments allowed on a specific group.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17004

Hi Duane,?

You are correct, it is the "horse of a different color".? The message quoting issue bothers some, but since messages can be read and responded to in several different ways, it is difficult to "solve".

Reading email, reading online or digests are sometimes difficult hills to climb for someone who just wants to read a response.

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 1:34:07 PM EDT, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

these threaded forum servers

I think that's part of the problem.? Groups.io is not a forum system, it's an email list that has a web presence, so it handles things a bit differently than something like phpBB.? Many folks don't understand the difference.

Duane
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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Brian Vogel

#17003

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 01:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

You seem to be under the impression that most e-mail interface users even know what you speak of exists.? ?Let me disabuse you of that notion (and I had to be disabused of it myself).

Also, threading has nothing to do with ease of reading.? ?I have often composed, or read, point-by-point responses to several different prior messages rolled into a single reply.? It is essential in those cases, at least if you want to be kind to your reader, to quote the point you're replying to and place the reply immediately beneath it so that context is clear and preserved.? I'll never expect that someone should have to go back and re-read past messages if they have, perhaps, forgotten who said exactly what and when.? It's my responsibility, as a writer, to make sure that what I write can be followed within a self-contained message.? ?When it's a direct response to the last thing said, generally no quoting is necessary, but that's often not the case, and particularly on a topic that may be in "hot and heavy" mode in terms of volume of messages.

?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17002

Lol! Good valid point. I have to laugh at your analogy there. Hehahaha.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP.

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 10:21, Larry McElhiney via Groups.Io wrote:

?

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

No one's agenda is going to necessarily convince anyone else to change their own process.? It is too difficult to meet everyone's needs, so most folks just pick a style which works for them and continues with it.

(Personally, I can't even convince someone else how to install the toilet paper roll. :-)

?

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17001

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

these threaded forum servers

I think that's part of the problem.? Groups.io is not a forum system, it's an email list that has a web presence, so it handles things a bit differently than something like phpBB.? Many folks don't understand the difference.

Duane
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Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17000

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 05:14 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:

Pics end up inline with the msg, text anywhere I want to put it. Ergo:

Except that when it gets posted in the archives of the group, the photo becomes an emailed attachment and is at the bottom of the message, as you can see here:
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/16985

Duane
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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#16999

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

No one's agenda is going to necessarily convince anyone else to change their own process.? It is too difficult to meet everyone's needs, so most folks just pick a style which works for them and continues with it.

(Personally, I can't even convince someone else how to install the toilet paper roll. :-)

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#16998

开云体育

First of all, love your sig. It's true. And second of all, I doubt that the practice will ever happen in the community as we are very stubborn. The only way I trim is if I get a message that x message could not be sent due to size limits, but that's the only way. Since i have that off on all of my groupsI would not be surprised if messages sent on lists of mine and probably others, are more than maybe 10 to 20 and higher kb in size.

Anyway Take care all and be blessed.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and ?tutorials go
and for hosting options go
to subscribe to the feed click

Our channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 9:23, Brian Vogel wrote:

Sarah,

? ? ? ? ? ?As you well know, I am familiar with you and familiar with what goes on in the blind community.? ?The issue is not with top posting, which has become far more common everywhere, the issue is with not bothering to trim anything, which is absolutely rampant on the blind lists (two of which I moderate on).

? ? ? ? ? ?It has been accepted, and sadly in my opinion, that deleting the material below what is being posted is optional or just not required.? And that makes it harder for many, including screen reader users, to get focus only on the actual response.

? ? ? ? ? ?I've been castigated on multiple occasions for not using top-posting exclusively, and I will never do so exclusively.? ?If there is a need to preserve a line or two from a previous message so that it's clear what statement I'm actually replying to I will do what is common practice everywhere else:? top quote the bit for context preservation followed by my response.

? ? ? ? ? ?You and I have almost always been "on the same page" overall, and there are certain practices that are (or at least were) common with regard to quotation trimming in particular that really need to be adopted on the blind lists.? Getting rid of pages of bottom quoted material can be done with a CTRL+A followed by a backspace or Delete key before composing a response, and really should be done and expected to be done.? ?I can't mount that battle, though, as all it will do is get me called nasty names and the claim be made, incorrectly as always, that I have no idea what the challenges are with regard to computer use and being blind.? That change is going to have to be driven, if it ever even starts, from within the community itself.
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.
? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Brian Vogel

#16997

Sarah,

? ? ? ? ? ?As you well know, I am familiar with you and familiar with what goes on in the blind community.? ?The issue is not with top posting, which has become far more common everywhere, the issue is with not bothering to trim anything, which is absolutely rampant on the blind lists (two of which I moderate on).

? ? ? ? ? ?It has been accepted, and sadly in my opinion, that deleting the material below what is being posted is optional or just not required.? And that makes it harder for many, including screen reader users, to get focus only on the actual response.

? ? ? ? ? ?I've been castigated on multiple occasions for not using top-posting exclusively, and I will never do so exclusively.? ?If there is a need to preserve a line or two from a previous message so that it's clear what statement I'm actually replying to I will do what is common practice everywhere else:? top quote the bit for context preservation followed by my response.

? ? ? ? ? ?You and I have almost always been "on the same page" overall, and there are certain practices that are (or at least were) common with regard to quotation trimming in particular that really need to be adopted on the blind lists.? Getting rid of pages of bottom quoted material can be done with a CTRL+A followed by a backspace or Delete key before composing a response, and really should be done and expected to be done.? ?I can't mount that battle, though, as all it will do is get me called nasty names and the claim be made, incorrectly as always, that I have no idea what the challenges are with regard to computer use and being blind.? That change is going to have to be driven, if it ever even starts, from within the community itself.
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#16996

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 06:14 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:

Is there a way to actually ATTACH a pic using a iPhone? Embedding is a P.I.T.A. when trying to organize msgs.

Agreed, and I have the same question. One of my subscribers insists that he cannot attach an image with his iPhone...and yet, he manages to attach non-image files just fine. ????

So I'm wondering whether what I'm being told by this guy is 1) utter nonsense, or 2) laziness in trying to learn his mail interface...perhaps both.

It seems to me that, if attaching an image file is truly un-possible, then the iPhone user interface is seriously broken.?

Regards,
Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

Brian Vogel

#16995

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:00 AM, Duane wrote:

I think part of the 'problem' is that much of the world, especially the US, has 'unlimited' bandwidth available in many areas, so people feel this common courtesy is no longer necessary.? In a way, I feel lucky to NOT have unlimited internet access, so I tend to think about the results of my actions.

I don't think that what both of us know to be correct netiquette with regard to quotation trimming has been driven by bandwidth for decades now, anywhere.? ?The amount of data in a plain text message or HTML e-mail is negligible by any standard.

It is, or should be, common courtesy to care about your readership being able to read whatever you send easily, and without any extraneous garbage.? That, in and of itself, means that taking a second or two to do a "select all" (even on a mobile device) and erasing everything before replying should be standard practice when context is preserved without it.

It does get much messier, though, as far as trying to do a lengthy point-by-point response using a mobile device, which is one reason I just don't.? I tend to avoid using a mobile device for anything other than reading or moderating, since ease of creation of text requires a keyboard as far as I'm concerned (and that's even with speech-to-text technology - which we've all seen the limitations of).

?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham