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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Brian Vogel
 

Sarah,

? ? ? ? ? ?As you well know, I am familiar with you and familiar with what goes on in the blind community.? ?The issue is not with top posting, which has become far more common everywhere, the issue is with not bothering to trim anything, which is absolutely rampant on the blind lists (two of which I moderate on).

? ? ? ? ? ?It has been accepted, and sadly in my opinion, that deleting the material below what is being posted is optional or just not required.? And that makes it harder for many, including screen reader users, to get focus only on the actual response.

? ? ? ? ? ?I've been castigated on multiple occasions for not using top-posting exclusively, and I will never do so exclusively.? ?If there is a need to preserve a line or two from a previous message so that it's clear what statement I'm actually replying to I will do what is common practice everywhere else:? top quote the bit for context preservation followed by my response.

? ? ? ? ? ?You and I have almost always been "on the same page" overall, and there are certain practices that are (or at least were) common with regard to quotation trimming in particular that really need to be adopted on the blind lists.? Getting rid of pages of bottom quoted material can be done with a CTRL+A followed by a backspace or Delete key before composing a response, and really should be done and expected to be done.? ?I can't mount that battle, though, as all it will do is get me called nasty names and the claim be made, incorrectly as always, that I have no idea what the challenges are with regard to computer use and being blind.? That change is going to have to be driven, if it ever even starts, from within the community itself.
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham
Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 06:14 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:
Is there a way to actually ATTACH a pic using a iPhone? Embedding is a P.I.T.A. when trying to organize msgs.
Agreed, and I have the same question. One of my subscribers insists that he cannot attach an image with his iPhone...and yet, he manages to attach non-image files just fine. ????

So I'm wondering whether what I'm being told by this guy is 1) utter nonsense, or 2) laziness in trying to learn his mail interface...perhaps both.

It seems to me that, if attaching an image file is truly un-possible, then the iPhone user interface is seriously broken.?

Regards,
Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help
Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

Brian Vogel
 

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:00 AM, Duane wrote:
I think part of the 'problem' is that much of the world, especially the US, has 'unlimited' bandwidth available in many areas, so people feel this common courtesy is no longer necessary.? In a way, I feel lucky to NOT have unlimited internet access, so I tend to think about the results of my actions.
I don't think that what both of us know to be correct netiquette with regard to quotation trimming has been driven by bandwidth for decades now, anywhere.? ?The amount of data in a plain text message or HTML e-mail is negligible by any standard.

It is, or should be, common courtesy to care about your readership being able to read whatever you send easily, and without any extraneous garbage.? That, in and of itself, means that taking a second or two to do a "select all" (even on a mobile device) and erasing everything before replying should be standard practice when context is preserved without it.

It does get much messier, though, as far as trying to do a lengthy point-by-point response using a mobile device, which is one reason I just don't.? I tend to avoid using a mobile device for anything other than reading or moderating, since ease of creation of text requires a keyboard as far as I'm concerned (and that's even with speech-to-text technology - which we've all seen the limitations of).

?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham
User Interface Suggestion

 

When the user sees the pink
"You are not subscribed to this group with this email"

you can shorten the pink portion up to the length of the text
and to the right of it should be the Join This Group button

UI.png

Re: I did a foolish thing

Mouse
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I did do that (many times in frustration) and then ended up as two members in my group.? I just deleted the one that wasn't confirmed so I'm ok now!!? Thanks for your help!!
?
Gloria?
?
?
?
?

-------Original Message-------
?
From: Duane
Date: 6/6/2019 11:36:14 AM
Subject: Re: [GMF] I did a foolish thing
?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 10:01 AM, Mouse wrote:
I am not confirmed.? Can someone please tell me how to fix this? Confirm me?

You'll need to click on the Confirm link in the email that was sent to your RR address.

Duane
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?
Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

 

Actually, it is easier for screen reader users to top post. It makes it easier for us to read stuff right away so top posting in the blind community is more than helpful. I've noticed that since about 2001 when I first started dealing with email and news groups etc.

Blessings and happy Thursday
Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP.

On 6 Jun 2019, at 7:46, Brian Vogel wrote:

?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 08:43 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
Why is it some people are apparently incapable of selective quoting when posting by email? Is it a lack of capability or simple laziness?
Both, sometimes in combination, sometimes not.? ?But it mostly comes because netiquette is not being passed down and much of it not being passed down is because there's an attitude that enforcing it "is mean" or you get called power mad (or worse) if you insist upon it.

Most of us learn by example and none of us is born knowing how to use e-mail or the internet.? But these days, unless you're lucky enough to somehow land in a venue where selective quoting is expected, and complete removal of any quoted material is expected as well when it's not needed to preserve context, what you're likely to see is "leave it all at the bottom of the message and add whatever I have to say at the top."? You learn that the lowest common denominator is acceptable.

It's sloppy, it makes searching for information maddening, and, sadly, it's not going to stop at any time in the near future, if ever.? ?That ship has sailed . . .
?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham
?
?
Re: I did a foolish thing

 

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 10:01 AM, Mouse wrote:
I am not confirmed.? Can someone please tell me how to fix this? Confirm me?

You'll need to click on the Confirm link in the email that was sent to your RR address.

Duane
--
Help: /static/help
GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Search button at the top of Messages list
A few site FAQs: /static/pricing#frequently-asked-questions
Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

Brian Vogel
 

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 08:43 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
Why is it some people are apparently incapable of selective quoting when posting by email? Is it a lack of capability or simple laziness?
Both, sometimes in combination, sometimes not.? ?But it mostly comes because netiquette is not being passed down and much of it not being passed down is because there's an attitude that enforcing it "is mean" or you get called power mad (or worse) if you insist upon it.

Most of us learn by example and none of us is born knowing how to use e-mail or the internet.? But these days, unless you're lucky enough to somehow land in a venue where selective quoting is expected, and complete removal of any quoted material is expected as well when it's not needed to preserve context, what you're likely to see is "leave it all at the bottom of the message and add whatever I have to say at the top."? You learn that the lowest common denominator is acceptable.

It's sloppy, it makes searching for information maddening, and, sadly, it's not going to stop at any time in the near future, if ever.? ?That ship has sailed . . .
?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham
I did a foolish thing

Mouse
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I was concerned about using my gmail address and decided to change it in the group that I own to a roadrunner address.? I ended up booting myself from all my groups.? I was finally able to get back into my group and the other owner made me an owner again but I am not confirmed.? Can someone please tell me how to fix this? Confirm me?
?
Gloria
Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

 

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 07:43 AM, Chris Jones wrote:
Why is it some people are apparently incapable of selective quoting when posting by email? Is it a lack of capability or simple laziness?
As to the second question, I'd say Yes! ;>)? Many people now days are trying to use something other than a full computer to reply and many of those devices make it difficult to select/trim/edit a reply.? Others are too lazy to spend a few seconds removing unneeded material or aren't aware that their email program is set up to include the entire message, including any previous replies, that they're replying to.

I think part of the 'problem' is that much of the world, especially the US, has 'unlimited' bandwidth available in many areas, so people feel this common courtesy is no longer necessary.? In a way, I feel lucky to NOT have unlimited internet access, so I tend to think about the results of my actions.

Duane
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Help: /static/help
GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Search button at the top of Messages list
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Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 05:44 PM, Frances wrote:
I like to help edit the GMF wiki. I can point people to it or specific spots when they have a problem.
As do I. However, I get irked when members (not of GMF!) seem incapable of the most basic of functions, and / or don't even consult their own group's wiki. On occasions - admittedly fairly rare - when given specific guidance they still manage to get it wrong.

A perpetual problem on many (most?) groups seems to be a failure, appearing on occasions to be a blank refusal, to trim off reams of previous material so that the vast bulk of any post is yet another copy of what has been sent before. On a moderated group this can be caught by a moderator (although repeatedly having to trim peoples' posts does get tedious) but on an unmoderated group, although a moderator may edit a post to remove superflous material on the web UI, an over - long email has already been sent to members, very possibly eroding their data allowances.

Why is it some people are apparently incapable of selective quoting when posting by email? Is it a lack of capability or simple laziness?

Chris
Re: What Does Bouncing Member Tell their Email Provider? #bouncedemails

 

The member in one of my groups with the Charter email was 'unbounced' on May 30th (by bounce probe) but then began bouncing again yesterday (June 4th) when their daily digest bounced. I forwarded it to them via my Gmail account this morning and it went through without a problem. But bounce probes are being returned "server not available."

I looked at Charter's email site, apparently the only way to request help is to call their help line. I would much prefer contacting them by email. My experience with various services has been, unless it is a very simple problem, talking with a rep over the phone is usually not too helpful. I think when you email them they have a better chance to mull over what you're asking. Maybe forward it to someone better able to answer.

I think the member in question is an older person and not too Internet/email savvy. They just want to read the digest. I've suggested they contact Charter but I'm not too sure they have. I discovered we have four other members with Charter email. Two are in no email mode. One is in individual message mode and had a spate of bouncing in June 2018 but seems okay since. The fifth is also in individual message mode had a 500 error (also in June 2018) -"550 5.1.1 wLk61x01L0GfduA01Lk61E Invalid recipient." Sounds like they either changed their email account or may no longer be with us.

tommy0421
Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

 

I don¡¯t find the below to be the case (6S, iOS 12.3.1).

Pics end up inline with the msg, text anywhere I want to put it. Ergo:




Is there a way to actually ATTACH a pic using a iPhone? Embedding is a P.I.T.A. when trying to organize msgs.

Sent from my phone

On Jun 5, 2019, at 5:01 PM

If you try to type under the photo, you will leave a blank white space in your email.

Your photo will be below the email footers in the Apple email.

image1.jpeg

Re: Notification upon Splitting of a Thread (was: Notice For a Message Needing Approval (i.e.: New Users Moderated))

Brian Vogel
 

Bruce,

? ? ? ? ?We moderate differently.? ?Splitting, and stating explicitly why in both the spin-off, and originating, topics has, I've found, helped in expectation setting and molding behavior over time.? I make very clear that topic hijacking, which is entirely different than a conversational digression in a topic, will not be tolerated.

? ? ? ? ? There was a time, and it's long ago, when mailing lists and most online forums were primarily frequented by tech geeks who understood netiquette (not that it wasn't violated, but when done it was generally very intentional).? ?Now these venues are often treated like extensions of social media (particularly the Twitterverse) by those who have no idea of the folkways and mores of the venue.

? ? ? ? ? Waiting for it all to die down allows bad behavior to be perpetuated, and modeled, in my opinion.? But, to each his or her own style.
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham
AOL members / issues

 

Has anyone on here experienced issues with AOL mail /AOL addresses / bouncing emails / unavailable mailboxes?
In the past week or two things seems to go bonkers, and I¡¯m wondering if it¡¯s widespread or localized, or if Steve Chase is back haunting folks, or if Verizon is screwing it up like it did Y!

Thx!
Re: Is there an upload file size limit? #question #usage #notworking

 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

I always post stuff to cloud such as box, dropbox, one drive etc just in case things like this happen, and so I can brake the link when I see fit, or who ever hosted the file can brake the link when they see fit. Good luck in a fix.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and ?tutorials go
and for hosting options go
to subscribe to the feed click

Our channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go

On 5 Jun 2019, at 12:34, Bruce Bowman wrote:

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 06:27 PM, Rob Bulnes wrote:
So it¡¯s happening¡­ is there a solution? Anyone?
The only alternative I can offer is to upload the file to proper cloud storage (Google Drive or some such) and post a hyperlink to your group. Failing that, if you should end up contacting support to ask about this, I think we would all appreciate it if you'd forward any response you get back here to GMF.
?
Regards,
Bruce
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The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

Re: Notification upon Splitting of a Thread

Marcio
 

¿ªÔÆÌåÓý

Bruce,
I usually just wait until all the digressions are done and then clean up the mess afterward. It's the only way I've found to avoid engaging in a split-and-mergefest.?
Same here. Trouble is that sometimes even? after days the? topic that should have been splited keeps going on and on. Spliting/merging in these cases can be a real nightmare.

Cheers,
AKA Starboy

Sent from a galaxy far, far away.
Re: Is there an upload file size limit? #question #usage #notworking

 

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 06:27 PM, Rob Bulnes wrote:
So it¡¯s happening¡­ is there a solution? Anyone?
The only alternative I can offer is to upload the file to proper cloud storage (Google Drive or some such) and post a hyperlink to your group. Failing that, if you should end up contacting support to ask about this, I think we would all appreciate it if you'd forward any response you get back here to GMF.
?
Regards,
Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help
Notification upon Splitting of a Thread (was: Notice For a Message Needing Approval (i.e.: New Users Moderated))

 

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 02:59 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
This topic has been split (and appropriately, I might add). It would be really helpful, when that happens, for the moderators to note such and post the link to the spin-off topic:??How much help do members need, and what kind??
Brian -- I agree that this topic should have been split, and I thank Shal for doing that.?

Such a problem arises when someone (usually several people) fail to recognize that they are drifting off-topic, and end up essentially hijacking an existing thread. Folks too unsophisticated to avoid doing that probably won't comply with the implied remedy either.*

Every message in GMF is moderated, so the split can be enforced that way; but in an unmoderated forum you might was well be tilting at windmills. So I usually just wait until all the digressions are done and then clean up the mess afterward. It's the only way I've found to avoid engaging in a split-and-mergefest.?

Regards,
Bruce

*Please note new subject line
Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

 

Hi everyone,

A member of a group I moderate has trouble sending photos to the group. His image just ends up as a jpeg id. I thought I would try to write simple instructions - this isn't in the wiki as far as I can see. However I don't have instructions for Androids.

This is assuming that your group allows you to send photos.

By Email

?
iPhone using email
?
If you use your email to send a photo, you need to do it as you usually do - start the email, find the insert photo command on your phone (on iPhone, you need to click in the body to get the cursor then click the arrow on the black bar to get to Insert command.
?
If you try to type under the photo, you will leave a blank white space in your email.
?
Your photo will be below the email footers in the Apple email.
?

From the website:

?
Click for new topic. Or reply to another photo if appropriate.
?
Use the Add Photo icon from the toolbar.
Or you might be able to drag and drop.
OR
Use Add Attachment icon if you are trying to attach a file.
Post as usual.
Your photo will end up in the place you put it.
?
Posting on iPhone from the website
?
Same as on a computer, but you also have an option to take a photo, then use photo.
?
Click on New Topic.
Write your post before you add the photo.
Click on Photo icon.
Click on the file folder icon.
Click on Take Photo or Video.
Or click on Photo Library for a photo you have or Browse if it is a document.
Click on Use Photo. Or Retake.
Click on Add.
The photo will end up in the place you put it, in the body of the email.

Please review - update - correct.
Add instructions for Android phones?

Frances
?
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