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Received from Norman Pierson at 10/31/2018 11:53 AM UTC:

The benefits of using gio outweigh the problem. But I wish my paying group had what some members would like so that they could be part of the group, instead of just receivers of emails.

Having to renew cookies every 30 days is annoying... especially when no other place I'm a member of requires that...

But that said, it isn't a thing that should prevent your members from being a part of your group vs just receivers of emails. Having to log in to access group features isn't so onerous that refusing to log in is a logical choice. And, if nothing else, subscribers can be a part of the group by posting messages via email.

Jim H

Received from Shal Farley at 10/31/2018 08:19 AM UTC:

Jim,

But a bit of research shows that with cookies deleted, visiting a Gio group that requires subscribership to read DOES take you to a login screen, while visiting a group that doesn't require subscribership to read does NOT take you to a login screen.

Ah, so that's the missing factor.

Yep. I trusted what you were saying, but I also knew what I saw. So I brainstormed possible causes for not seeing what you said I should (a logon screen). That lead me to test several combinations involving visiting my three groups with a good cookie and with a deleted cookie... to find that the group setting involving making the archives public makes a difference in what one sees when the cookie is expired. And it makes the same difference for the group owner (me) as it does for a subscriber.

Now the confusion makes more sense to me. Kind of ironic, given that GMF has public archives - but most of the time I'm going on site it is to access the Pending list. Which I do either through a link in the notice or by clicking on a pinned tab in my browser (which is almost always open to GMF's Pending list).

Given the cause, I don't see a 100% cure for this problem.

I don't know if it is readily possible for the page you land on to determine that you were previously at a page while logged in, and then put up the kind of banner Bruce suggested. I wouldn't want it to be there for people who are just visiting (were not previously logged in).
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/12579

A banner for ALL non-logged-in visitors might be more acceptable if it said something more than "YOU ARE NOT LOGGED IN." Perhaps, "YOU ARE UNABLE TO ACCESS ALL FEATURES OF THIS GROUP BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT LOGGED IN" would serve to create awareness in a subscriber without creating confusion in a visitor who didn't expect full access because he knows he's not logged in as a subscriber (or at least knows after reading the banner). It won't help the subscriber who is treated as a visitor because he isn't logged in... and subsequently tries to log in with the wrong email address.

Bottom line? We can't eliminate ALL (as in 100.0000%) confusion, but I do think the confusion caused by expiring cookies can be reduced.

How about an option to "Remain permanently logged in?" Those choosing it would get a cookie that never expires. ("Never" probably being Jan 2039.)

Jim H

Received from Duane at 10/30/2018 08:47 PM UTC:

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 03:40 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

I clicked one of them, which happened to be to a group that allows non-members to read, but not post. It looked the same as it usually does

Not quite. Your Display Name would have been missing from the upper right corner of the screen. It won't be there if you're not logged in. That would be a quick and easy way to quickly tell if you're logged in or not.

Exactly! And I figured that out after maybe 10 seconds. But others aren't as situationally aware. So forget about me and think about the weekly complaints of this same problem due to an expired cookie. It's week after week after week after week.

Jim H

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 06:15 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

That's a seriously insecure way of managing passwords UNLESS you have good physical security for your computer plus require a password to logon to that computer. Otherwise anyone who sits in front of your computer can log into your Gio account.

The underlining is mine.

What you say is entirely true, but not really all that relevant. A computer (of any description) that is used for accessing Groups.io is no less vulnerable just because it has no password stored by the browser. Anyone obtaining access to that computer (including by theft or theft by finding) can simply find Groups.io (there is almost bound to be a shortcut sitting there!) and request a log - in link to be sent to the legitimate user's email account.

Now if the computer in question (which might include an easily portable device) has an "active" cookie set the person who now has the device can access Groups.io without even having to request a log - in link to be sent.

Even 30 day expiring cookies are no more secure against the misuse of a computer than having log - in details stored by a browser. If the computer is in the wrong hands then those wrong hands have access to Groups.io, courtesy of the 30 cookie.

Any argument against a password being stored by a browser also applies to the use of log - in cookies, be they 30 day or "non - expiring". The insecurity exists in both cases to almost the same extent.

Chris

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 04:05 PM, Norman Pierson wrote:

Chris, not everyone is computer literate; I'm afraid you fail to grasp that. You and I are interacting on the website, which, I've explained, some of my members are unable to do because they can't work through the login system without having to remember every 30 days that they are not joining a new site with different credentials.

Actually you are mistaken; I do grasp the fact that some may not be computer literate. But overall there appear to be one or two paradoxes that I am struggling to resolve. (BTW I am uncomfortably within the age range that you mentioned in an earlier posting!)

Members must be sufficiently competent to switch on their chosen device (PC / laptop / tablet . smartphone) and find their email program, and then use the email program to send and read message traffic. In the case of anything other than a PC they must be sufficiently competent to keep the device battery charged.

For a person to be a member of any group (via any forum provider) they have to be able to click on a few correct links, or send the right email. OK; some may well be refugees from Yahoo (like so many Groups.io users!) but even if they are they still had to join a group there one way or another. It is therefore reasonable to assume that they were sufficiently competent to get through a joining - up process.

Then in an earlier posting in this thread (Oct 29 #12925) you stated ...but we require that all members log on to the web site, at least initially. OK; between you as Owner / Moderator and your members as individuals you manage to get that far.

At this point I start to struggle; to have got this far your members have already demonstrated a basic level of competence, but it all seems to go wrong when it comes to logging in again after the elapse of 30 days when the cookie expires. (It is worth noting that if the cookie expiring is a problem in that they are immediately denied access to the web - based version of a group then the list of basic skills clearly extends to being able to find the web - based version in the first place.)

Why is logging in again such a challenge? I really do not understand this, given the level of skill that the members must already have demonstrated.

Looking a bit further back in this thread your message of 28th Oct (#12905) stated My group is a paid group of old codgers who won't go to a website if it is difficult to obtain entry. In what way is it difficult? I would argue that it is a lot easier than some of the things they had to do to get into a group in the first place.

Your next sentence read They complain about "not being able to use the website", followed a few words later by I'd appreciate a way to have my membership get on the website easier.

This seems to present another paradox; if regaining acsess to the website really is so difficult, I would have expected your members to find using the web UI complex beyond description.

Can you help me here? How can your members find their way around the website, and benefit from it, if just logging in every 30 days so problematic? To me it is counterintuitive to be told that while logging in is a problem, navigating around and using the website isn't.

After some time pondering all this last evening I finished up going back to an old copy of The Games People Play by Eric Berne because I started to suspect that there was an element of game - playing going on; a combination of Ain't it awful and Why don't you... yes but.

But who, exactly, are the players?

Chris

Thank you both so much,
One day I'm going to take the Setting page and document what each field really means - of course I have to know what each field does first, hmmm
Bruce, the change worked beautifully.
Jim, you are over my head, but I passed your comments along.
Beth

Received from Beth Weld at 11/1/2018 04:23 PM UTC:

I have someone who wants the subject line to always include the name of the main group along with the subgroup so that she can filter emails easily. I really don't want to rename all of the subgroups to include the name of the main group, and I guess that I'm not as sympathetic as I should be. I was hoping that a forced hashtag would be a compromise, but I guess not.

The email header contains a line labelled "List-Id:" that contains the email address of the group (and I assume subgroup). She could try filtering on that header.

That has the added benefit of identifying the group the email came from even when it was crossposted from elsewhere and the subject line contains a tag from another group.

Jim H

Received from Chris Jones via Groups.Io at 10/29/2018 04:14 PM UTC:

On Mon, Oct 29, 2018 at 03:42 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

If that were the case, only folks who don't visit at all for 30 days would be prone to thinking they'd been dropped as subscribers.

I propose to ignore the small voice that is telling me that I am going to waste my time typing this, but here goes anyway...

You were indeed wasting your time. I never said anything about "unsubscribed for marking messages as spam."

Jim H

Received from Shal Farley at 10/31/2018 07:51 AM UTC:

Jim,

It sure looks to me like upon initial sign up one can set a password without having to ask for a login via email.

True, but having done so your account is NC (Not Confirmed) until you receive and respond to an email verification request.

In NC status you don't receive group messages by email, and you can't access any members-only group pages - only public pages and your Account pages. Maybe your Subscription page as well.

So again, if you are having difficulty getting messages at that address, you are fairly well stuck.

That's true for subscribers whose ISP is blocking Gio email at time of signup, but doesn't it have potential benefits for the other 98% of subscribers? Including the ones at ISPs who later block Gio email so they can't get a login link after their cookie expires?

Jim H

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 04:05 PM, Beth Weld wrote:

I have someone who wants the subject line to always include the name of the main group along with the subgroup so that she can filter emails easily.

Okay, that's an entirely different situation from what you first described.

If it doesn't have to actually function as a hashtag, you can do this with the Subject Tag. Note that GroupManagersForum has a subject tag of [GMF].

Go to Admin>Settings>Message Formatting for each group/subgroup and change it to whatever you want. This will only affect EMAILS, though...the Subject Tag will not appear in the message archive.
?
Regards,
Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

Thanks Bruce,
That is what I was afraid of.? I have someone who wants the subject line to always include the name of the main group along with the subgroup so that she can filter emails easily. I really don't want to rename all of the subgroups to include the name of the main group, and I guess that I'm not as sympathetic as I should be.? I was hoping that a forced hashtag would be a compromise, but I guess not.

Any ideas are always appreciated.
Thanks
Beth

Received from Tony Moody at 10/30/2018 12:21 PM UTC:

Normally, on the login page my Emailaddress and Password (obfuscated) are prefilled; I click the Green login button and I'm in. Every time month after month. That is my story and I'm sticking to it.

You're using the auto form fill feature of your browser to enter a Username (Email Address) and Password every time you visit Gio.

That's a seriously insecure way of managing passwords UNLESS you have good physical security for your computer plus require a password to logon to that computer. Otherwise anyone who sits in front of your computer can log into your Gio account.

In any case, what you're doing makes any issue with cookies moot for you because you don't depend on cookies.

Jim H

Chris, not everyone is computer literate; I'm afraid you fail to grasp that. You and I are interacting on the website, which, I've explained, some of my members are unable to do because they can't work through the login system without having to remember every 30 days that they are not joining a new site with different credentials. We've created a comprehensive tutorial, but again, some of our members were born before Fortran.;)

We migrated here from Yahoo, and even that was a learning experience for some. Even there, some members found it difficult to use our website. As moderators, we can force our users to do things our way, or we can try to adapt to the needs of our group.

I didn't start this thread, and it appears that other groups have a similar issue. But I'm done.

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 09:26 AM, Beth Weld wrote:

Is there a way to set up a hashtag for a group and have every new topic/message have that inserted without the member manually adding it?? Example - in a meeting subgroup, set up a hashtag for "#meeting" and have that appended to every subject line in that subgroup?

There are some aspects of hashtags (set Topic Duration, lock immediately, etc) that could be a desirable automated feature for a [sub]group and cannot be achieved in any other way. Unfortunately, at?this time hashtags have to be inserted manually into each topic, the exceptions being the automated announcement ones (like #poll and #chat).

You can create a situation via group settings whereby the group requires hashtags?and there is only one available, thereby forcing everybody to include the hashtag if they don't want their post to bounce. Most group owners have found that idea too objectionable for further consideration.

I have even tried embedding a hashtag in the group's Subject Tag, hoping it would be applied. But it seems the message subject line is parsed for hashtags before the subject tag is inserted, so that attempt also failed.

I hope this helps, but it probably doesn't.

Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 08:42 AM, Cody, Helenmary wrote:

Once that is done, would it be possible to import just the messages from a second group, CRFCRC_Board_Committees, essentially combining the histories of the two groups?

Yes, this has been done before. The only "problem" is that the message numbers will be out of sequence.?

Let's say your first group transferred has 5000 messages. They will be imported as message numbers 1-5000. Message #5001 will be the first message of the second group imported, despite the fact that it might have been posted on the same date or even before message #1.

Message date/time stamps are retained, and as messages are generally viewed in chronological order anyway, this may not be objectionable. Just don't be too surprised when you find the assigned message numbers to be interleaved like this.

Hope this helps,
Bruce

P.S. Setting up the committees group as a subgroup of the board may be a more logical way to organize this.
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

I have searched, but I can't find an easy answer so need to ask.

Is there a way to set up a hashtag for a group and have every new topic/message have that inserted without the member manually adding it?? Example - in a meeting subgroup, set up a hashtag for "#meeting" and have that appended to every subject line in that subgroup?
Thanks
Beth

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 11:54 PM, Bart Fried wrote:

Any way to crunch them back into the original thread?

Others have shown you where you can find information on merging threads. You can also split off messages from a thread that has been hijacked.

These are useful tools, but something to keep in mind:? While you can tidy up the message archive, it has no effect on emails that have already gone out...if anyone subsequently replies to them, the problem arises all over again. So splitting and merging threads can become a real pain, and it's often best to wait until the discussion dies down before attempting to clean up the mess.

Hope this helps,
Bruce
--
The system Help is your friend.??/static/help

I am new here and just starting to get the hang of groups.io. I think this is the right place for my question, but please redirect me if not!

I am looking to import several small groups from Yahoo to groups.io. I am in the midst of importing the first group, CRFCRC_Board, with all of its members, messages, documents, etc. Once that is done, would it be possible to import just the messages from a second group, CRFCRC_Board_Committees, essentially combining the histories of the two groups? Or will the import function only work once per new groups.io group? I could set up two groups again, but it really would simplify things if they could just be combined.

Thanks for your help!