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Annick,

One of my group members noticed that when she sends a message to our
group her return address looks like this:

user@...

Welcome to email according to DMARC.

It is not a bug.
/static/help#dmarc

It is Groups.io's work-around for certain email services' demand that any message from one of their users, if not delivered directly by them, be rejected by the receiver. The result, if Groups.io did not do this, is that messages from members using Yahoo, AOL, and various other services would be uniformly rejected when Groups.io forwards them to (other) members.

So the work-around is for Groups.io to re-write the From address so that the message is actually "From" the groups.io domain.

Yahoo Groups adopted a similar workaround, but they apply it uniformly to all messages, and the made the mistake (IMO) of using the group's posting address as the actual From email address in all messages. Which causes grave confusion in some email clients, especially mobile ones.

Search GMF for DMARC and you'll likely find more than you ever wanted to know about it.

Shal


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No, it's not a bug, it's a result of services that use DMARC: /static/help#why-are-emails-from-some-people-changed-to-be-via-groups-io

Duane
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Jim,

Yes... and to that I'd add that Yahoo.com isn't an ISP so anyone using
them for email delivery also has another option for email delivery at
the ISP they pay for Internet access.

It isn't always that straightforward. In recent years many ISPs have farmed out their email service to Yahoo, MSN, Google or other major mailbox providers, rather than run their own mailservers.

In fact, my current ISP doesn't offer email services at all. That's the primary reason I'm using Gmail at present - previously I'd been using the service that came with my ISP, but in my last switch I had to go find an independent mailbox provider.

That said, your point is valid: there are still several choices out there for mailbox service, despite all the consolidation in the industry.

A call to their ISP's Tech Support should tell them if that ISP uses
FBL and whether there's a setting to bypass all filtering and accept
all mail.

I tried that long ago to no avail - my ISP would not admit to having any filtering, yet I had pretty clear evidence of at least greylisting and sometimes outright rejecting my Yahoo Group messages. But then, it was Verizon DSL (back when they ran their own mailservers).

Shal


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One of my group members noticed that when she sends a message to our group her return address looks like this:

Received from Bob Cook at 9/30/2018 01:31 PM UTC:

If you think you are going to "educate" these people, you are TOTALLY WRONG. They don't need to be a mechanic to drive their car. They should not have to learn to do something (every month or week!) to use groups.io. They have no idea how to access their spam folder or successfully move a message out of the spam/trash folder.

They don't have to be a full fledged mechanic to drive a car, but they darn sure need to know to change their oil and check fluid levels and tire pressure periodically - or pay someone else to do this on a reasonable schedule - if they want that car to keep running. One of the first things I did after my son got his driver's license... before he was let loose alone with the car... was to teach him how to change a tire.

And to continue with the car analogy, many (if not most) younger people can't drive a stick shift and would be thoroughly frustrated if pushed to learn. But I bet their grandfather can drive one and took the learning of it in stride at the time.

It really isn't that hard to find a JUNK folder and once there marking a message as "Not spam" is trivial. It **IS** hard to do if anger is allowed to override reason. In my experience the members who have the most problems dealing with problems are the one who are most angry about the problem. I tell them to lose the attitude and I'll be glad to help them. Abuse me and they're on their own.

Also in my experience, those who are concerned about "old people" (etc) are underrating most of their older members. And for those oldsters (infirm , etc) who really need outside help there's one of their children, grandchildren, perhaps even great grandchildren, or even the high school kid next door. I've pointed to those potential sources of help for those I couldn't help via email... with very good success.

Some people don't adapt well to change, but they will if they have no other choice AND if shown how at the same time.

Coming from years on Yahoo, this policy is a HUGE step backwards for my group.

Yahoo is not only too big to block, but they don't deal adequately with spammers operating from Yahoo Stores because they know they're too big to block. Groups.io isn't too big to block so they unsubscribe people who flag their messages as spam in order to avoid a bad reputation that will get even more of their mail blocked. It's a matter of survival. For me it's not even a matter of opinion which approach is more "backward."

Jim H

Received from Patty Sliney via Groups.Io at 9/29/2018 03:16 PM UTC:

And, we also include how to manage their Junk/Spam folders moving forward (teaching "old dogs new tricks" sort of thing.) I've gotten pushback from some of my list members about that last piece of advice. Our reply to them is: If you continue to just randomly empty your Junk/Spam folder without restoring authentic emails as "Not Spam", then you're going to be continually unsubbed from Groups.io, if there are emails from the same in your Junk/Spam folder. Bad Form. Not Best Practice. And perhaps our list is not the best place for you, then.

Harsh, but if someone isn't willing to make a small change in how they manage their email, nothing we can do about that.

A bit harsh sounding ONLY because it's missing the "why" part of why Gio does this. In my opinion that message above needs to be given exactly as straightforward as above... plus why. Then it needs to be read for comprehension and heeded... and then ignored at one's own peril. Refusing to recognize it as a currently inescapable reality and instead insist that Gio abandon its unsubscribed for marking as spam policy risks the future of Groups.io.

And, for what it's worth, for my lists, the most common email service unsubbed folks use are in order: @yahoo.com and @aol.com

Tho very few forced unsubs here, same experience in that Yahoo and AOL constitute most of them.

Yahoo is a web portal, not an ISP (OK so it IS an ISP, but under the SBC domain name). Folks using Yahoo.com as a delivery point for email have another email delivery option thru their own ISP. That's the option I recommend to my subscribers who are having problems with email at Yahoo. AOL and Yahoo are both marketed by Oath, which is a subsidiary of Verizon. It shouldn't come as a huge surprise that they share some of the same issues.

Jim H

Received from Duane at 9/30/2018 03:15 PM UTC:

On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 09:34 AM, Bob Cook wrote:
Coming from years on Yahoo, this policy is a HUGE step backwards for my group.

I think it's rather ironic that Yahoo is one of the main enforcers of the FBL policy when it comes to receiving emails, but don't seem to honor it when sending them. Until the FBL goes away, if ever, sites like Groups.io will need to honor it or face blacklisting from email services. It's also unnerving that Yahoo (and others) will decide that an email is spam, them use their seemingly arbitrary decision to send anything from that source to the spam folder. The main alternatives for now are to get folks to check for (possibly mislabeled) spam or change email providers to one that doesn't use FBL. Neither is a simple operation, but both work very well in most cases.

Yes... and to that I'd add that Yahoo.com isn't an ISP so anyone using them for email delivery also has another option for email delivery at the ISP they pay for Internet access. A call to their ISP's Tech Support should tell them if that ISP uses FBL and whether there's a setting to bypass all filtering and accept all mail.

Jim H

Received from Gerald Boutin at 9/29/2018 06:17 AM UTC:

For example, it is very common practice on commercial websites that are trying to sell a product or service to require your contact information in order to obtain access to free services and information. The welcome email always seems to include the "please add our email address to your white-list". Note that this is done up front before they start spamming me.

That "please add our email address..." message should be a warning that their emailing reputation is - fairly or unfairly - not so good. This is precisely why I maintain several email addresses on Yahoo... addresses I use only when I absolutely must give an email address to someone I don't want to have my real email address. I'd give Yahoo's email filters a score of 9.9 out of 10 for effectiveness. Later on, if I unsubscribe and the unsubscription request isn't honored, I mark the next message as spam and Yahoo's filter takes care of them. I highly recommend this approach for use with sites you really don't want to have your main email address. And don't let the name "Yahoo" scare you. YahooGroups stinks on ice, but email is handled quite well.

Jim H

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Tony,

Is it not possible to see if it was the ISP marked the message as
spam? _or_if it was the Subscriber?

The information provided in FBL reports apparently varies with different email services. Mark has said that the ones causing this trouble do not provide any detail on why the message was reported.

I once suggested he use a heuristic to distinguish this: look at the delay from message delivery to it appearing in an FBL report. If the delay is on the order of 30 days or more then likely the message was auto-deleted from a spam folder. If it is relatively prompt (a day or two) it is likely the user marking it spam.

Mark was skeptical of this, noting that the email services tend to run their FBL reports in batches, so the timing would be suspect in either case. I don't know if he ever looked into the statistics to see if there would be a chance of making that work.

Simultaneously Groups.io tell the subscriber, if if possible, that
their ISP is denying delivery of emails they have subscribed for.

Delivery isn't being denied (that would be a "Bounce", aka message rejection). Rather delivery is being diverted to the member's spam folder.

Shal


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Not having gotten into the cell phone revolution until a couple years ago, I always wondered what an app was when I could already use my browser on my PC. I thought I might be missing something, but I think I've figured it out. Apps were invented collect ad revenue.?

To be a bit more coordinated with my information, I can also add that using groupsio via a browser on my cellphone works great.

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Gerald

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Coming from years on Yahoo, this policy is a HUGE step backwards for my group.

I think it's rather ironic that Yahoo is one of the main enforcers of the FBL policy when it comes

Re: "how the different types change a database" - not sure what you mean?

Each column can hold a different 'type' of data.? There previously was no way to have formatted text (think of putting new lines where you want and having indents and bold text etc).
The new HTML paragraph type allows formatted text in a column.??
Note: if you have an existing database with a column of type "Paragraph", changing it to "HTML Paragraph" will clear all the data from the column.? I imagine it does that for any data type change.
Toby

Received from Shal Farley at 9/28/2018 09:27 PM UTC:

Another thing it would do, presumably, would be provide flexibility in the donation amount.

Good point!

For what I'm getting from Gio I'd be glad to donate more than $10 and it would look a lot more attractive to do that if I didn't have to deal with whatever comes along with a Premium group.

Jim H

Don,

Can anyone explain to me how the different types change a database?

I'm not expert in the use of Groups.io's Database feature, but the different column types are designed to hold different types of data, and not just treat everything the same (plain text) as was true in Y!Groups database.

This affects the way a user enters data into the field, in Add Row or Edit Row, and the way the data is displayed.

There's some step-by-step info here, including a list of the types with
a brief description of each:
/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki/Databases

Shal


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Milt,

Does anyone here know whether an iPhone App for Groups.io is on the
Wish List

It was at one time, but I think that idea has been supplanted by "Responsive Web Design" - the technique of having the web site adapt automatically to the device used to read it.


Most of the benefits of having an app can be gained through responsive design, without the development costs, end-user adoption, end-user security concerns, and device version compatibility problems of developing a suite of apps for various mobile platforms.

or, if not, how to get that added? Seems like a good idea for
Groups.io.

The beta group is Groups.io's official "suggestion box".


Shal


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I will let shall point you to the direction of the messages that were discussed about having an app for the site, and it is on the to do list. But it hasn't been discussed in a while. However, he does have a mobile site. Your browser should take you there whenever you visit the site with your iPhone.

Oy veh!

Legal advice followed by a disclaimer of not being a lawyer and it not being legal advice.

Why bother when all it does is spread FUD - Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt.

Outside the realm of politics there are no legal requirements for ACCEPTING donations. The legal requirements applicable to a business like Groups.io involve how they are accounted for once received... and that is, quite frankly, none of our business. All you accomplish with legal opinions followed by a disclaimer saying you aren't a lawyer is to spread FUD - fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Why would it not be legally possible to accept doanations nation-wide? They aren't taxable by the states the donors live in like payments for goods or services rendered are, so state boundaries aren't a consideration. So where's the problem?

Internationally? Who cares what the regulations in Whatchamacallitstan? They apply to the donor, not to the


Received from toki at 9/28/2018 07:59 PM UTC:

Duane,

I think it's rather ironic that Yahoo is one of the main enforcers of
the FBL policy when it comes to receiving emails, but don't seem to
honor it when sending them.

I think that if there were still any development going on at Yahoo Groups then the Yahoo Mail team would by now have forced Groups to deal with Y!Mail's FBL.

I can't be certain what Y!Groups would have done about it, but they'd have to do something or else continue with the status-quo: Y!Groups' messages landing in the Spam folder or being rejected.

Shal


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