On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 04:36 PM, Chris Jones wrote:.

What if the original default was by date and you needed it by title?? Would that be onerous to explain to members how to take a click on one pull-down??

See above.

You’ve dodged the question. If it is so onerous to explain to peeps NOW how to change the display, you would need to have lived with “date” and had non functioning albums, correct? There’s no way that so many peeps could have be told how to change the default to “title” so that your formatting works.?

AND FURTHER, it date was the only option you (and rightfully others) would obviously ask that a “by title” function be implemented. BUT for heavens sake, don’t change the default to the better (in your groups’ opinion) “title” because everyone is used to (by your group standard) the “inferior” default? ?You would need to repeatably explain to peeps how to make one click so the album formatting “works.”?

By that standard ANY desirable function cannot be implemented as “default” because it changes what the masses are used to seeing. ?

Theres battles led worth fighting and ones that ?(IMHO) are just silly.?

What will you do about peeps that are NEW joins - ?are they so dysfunctional that they cannot be told how to make one click? ?I read that it’s no so much that the default was changed, as much as it is that the default isn’t what you peeps might prefer.?

I DO AGREE it’s best to have a group option, but in the meantime it’s not fatal.


[mod note: I think this argument has gone beyond being a battle worth fighting. We'll see if Mark chooses to roll back the change of default or not.]

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 04:47 PM, rgaige2@... wrote:

I would like to know if there is a

way to set?my I O Groups so

we do not archive messages.

No, there's not.? There's an undocumented page where you can easily delete entire topics quite quickly.? /g/groupname/topics-test (replace groupname with the name of your group.? Be very careful using that page because when something is deleted, it's gone.? This has been discussed before, both here and on the beta group (the official suggestion box for the site.)? You may find additional information by looking through the archives of either or both groups.? Since the main purpose of a group is to have archives, I doubt that the capability of not archiving will be implemented any time soon.

There are group mailing list programs available to do the sort of thing you want to accomplish.? Each person could still have a personal archive, but nothing would be stored collectively for access by others.

Duane
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Good afternoon, ? I would like to know if there is a way to set?my I O Groups so we do not archive messages. If there is would you please tell me how to do this.? If not how can I delete the messages that are archived there.. Google I have one that I own too and the messages are archived there too. I own 3 groups and mod 3 groups. Any help would be so appreciated. Thank You so much. ? Submitted Respectfully, Beck

Jim,

... or Shal's "least astonishment" ...

I can't claim credit for the phrase.


I used it in beta specifically because I knew Mark would know exactly what that means. A subtle comment to the casual reader, but a sledgehammer to him and other UI designers.

Shal


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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 02:31 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:

Is posting a msg to the group a real issue?

I don't think so.? The real issue appears to be that it needs to be done at all.? It was supposedly changed to accommodate 'less computer-savvy' users.? Now the same problem exists, only reversed.

You're not restoring any order, just displaying different options.? Do you need to send out instructions how to change the msg display from earliest to newest first?

Yes, he would be restoring it to his carefully orchestrated arrangement.? If you have only computer familiar members, you're lucky.? Many folks need instructions for something that 'simple' and still get it wrong.

Duane
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 08:23 PM, Jim Higgins wrote:

The goal should be minimal impact on those who don't care about, or aren't actively involved in pushing the change.

Well said, Sir; very well said.

Chris

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 07:31 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:

Is posting a msg to the group a real issue?? Mercy me.

No it isn't, but getting people to act on it can be. I wouldn't want to have to repeat it at regular intervals.

? You're not restoring any order, just displaying different options.? Do you need to send out instructions how to change the msg display from earliest to newest first?

Not it isn't just displaying different options. I has changed the default option. To repeat the phrase Shal used That would have preserved the "least astonishment" principle by having no change in site behavior until a user explicitly changes their sort order.

What if the original default was by date and you needed it by title?? Would that be onerous to explain to members how to take a click on one pull-down??

See above.

Or would you have lived with just dealing with pix by date??

Our photo archive simply wouldn't work based on presenting photos in date order.

... but give me a break, this isn't difficult to "correct" is it?

It shouldn't have to be corrected at all. Why do you need a break; it is those who have to deal with a disruption, not you, that needs the break! And no; it isn't difficult to correct (I don't think I ever said it was) but the correction should simply not be necessary.

I am very much in agreement with what Bruce wrote: default behaviors such as this should be changed with extreme caution.?The silent majority tend to be happy with things the way they are...and recently it seems that their interests have been too often subverted by a handful of people who are willing to make a lot of noise.

Chris

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I agree 100%.

Changes that add additional options to existing group settings should simply add the additional option without changing the current default. The goal should be minimal impact on those who don't care about, or aren't actively involved in pushing the change. I think the principle of "minimal impact on the uninterested," or Shal's "least astonishment" should be applied when expanding options.

Jim H



Received from Chris Jones via Groups.Io at 3/24/2019 09:30 AM UTC:

Doug,

No, I simply cannot sign in. However, I *can* received postings by
members of this group, and reply to them by altering the headers, but
I simply cannot enter the group itself to make any changes.

I'd like to explore this a bit further, but that would be a conversation better suited to the Yahoo Groups version of GMF:
Subscribe : groupmanagersforum-subscribe@...
Post Message : groupmanagersforum@...

Or we could just take it off-list if you'd rather not subscribe to another group just for that.

... but I doubt that he could sign me in and then promote me to owner,
not being one himself.

No, not owner. That's the one thing a moderator, no matter what privileges you give them, cannot do.

He has been co-moderator for 2 or 3 years, but I can't remember what
privileges I gave him, probably not too high to avoid anyone trying to
take over the group, ...

That's usually the problem.

Without the "Add, remove, and change moderator privileges" privilege your co-moderator won't be able to assist you with the transfer to Groups.io

You could ask him to go to the "Manage Members" page in your Yahoo Group and click on some member (not mod or owner) there. If the Edit Member pop-up dialog contains the Role control then you're in luck - he has the needed privilege.

I may get him to download all the many photographs which we have
there, ...

PG Offline will likely be very helpful doing that:


Shal


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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 12:59 PM, Don Dawson wrote:

it is from NetZero.net

That's the name of the service and has been for many years.? There's nothing you can do to change it.? If you try to go to the NetZero.com site, you'll end up at NetZero.net.

Duane
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Chris,

I grieves me to say it but IHMO the change to the default sort order
implemented a couple of days ago was a mistake.

I don't think that change alone was necessarily a mistake.

However, given that it was rapidly followed by a change to remember one's chosen sort order I think it should have been rolled back first.
I've said so on beta, but that topic is moderated and my post has not yet appeared there so here's what I said:

"I may be too late in saying this, but perhaps you should have rolled
back the prior change to date order before rolling out this change.

"That would have preserved the "least astonishment" principle by having
no change in site behavior until a user explicitly changes their sort
order."

... I suspect that I will not be the only owner / moderator who feels
that this change was rushed through without enough consideration about
its unintended consequences.

Certainly not, as others' comments in the beta topic attest. Including Duane's nearly identical request.

One or two beta members have requested that the group - level default
sort order should be owner settable, but I have no idea whether that
will be implemented or not.

I think it is unlikely, given that Mark has implemented memory of the user's chosen sort order. The two could work together but that may be seen as an over-complication that would lead to further usage/support questions.

Shal


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On, my photos are sortable within a Photo album, and my sort selection is staying selected, even after leaving the group, and going back.? Just click on the sort button and select from, "Name, Posted or Taken", and each option has the option to sort by first or last
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 12:59 AM, Jim Higgins wrote:

Any chance this prevents seeing those annoying sig images, thus making it even harder to delete them?

Hmmm...and yet another change in default behavior that IMO was not carefully thought through.

I hope this is not in response to my request for a group option to strip embedded images. If so, this "remedy" bears little resemblance to what I asked for.
?
Bruce
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 05:41 AM, Chris Jones wrote:

Many changes brought about because of requests on beta have little or no impact on those who did not request them and perhaps don't need them; this change is different in that it affects everybody, and may in fact have disadvanted more subscribers than it benefitted.

I agree that default behaviors such as this should be changed with extreme caution.?The silent majority tend to be happy with things the way they are...and recently it seems that their interests have been too often subverted by a handful of people who are willing to make a lot of noise.?

Not everybody maintains a presence in the beta group, and it's a very unpleasant experience to wake up one morning and find that something that once worked fine (or that you put a lot of energy into to make work fine) is now broken.

Regards,
Bruce
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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 01:45 PM, Denny G. wrote:

Nothing has really changed.

Yes it has; the default sort.

The user-selectable sort order was implemented and works perfectly in that you can now set the order you prefer on a given viewing, and the software remembers that sort order for the next viewing.

Yes it works, but from a different starting point.

I really don't understand your issue as nothing has changed except that the sort order now does not require an individual to reset it each visit.

The "big" issue is that in providing a solution for a perhaps small group of not computer - savvy subscribers in may well have created a problem for a much larger group of not computer - savvy subscribers.

Why not just set the sort how YOU like to have it and forget it? Unless, of course, you want to sort differently the next time you visit PHOTOS.

I have spent a lot of time trying to organise both Photo Album Titles, and the sequence of Photos within albums into some sort of sensible sequence. I now have to consider sending out instructions for >2500 subscribers about how to restore that order.

This is an excellent enhancement IMHO, regardless of how many people requested it.

Having different / additional "sort" options is clearly an enhancement; altering the default is not. And your comment regardless of how many people requested it can easily lead to the problems that can arise from the "tyranny of the minority".

I have no objections to additional options, but changing the default takes away the option of not having to do anything. If a group - level option were to be provided then my objections would cease to exist after no more than perhaps half a dozen clicks.

Chris

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On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 08:45 AM, Denny G. wrote:

Nothing has really changed. The user-selectable sort order was implemented and works perfectly in that you can now set the order you prefer on a given viewing, and the software remembers that sort order for the next viewing.

I think Chris's concern, as well as mine, is that the default sort is now newest first instead of by title.? Changing the default messed up a lot of work that some folks had done to get things in the order they wanted, so members of all those groups will need to switch back.? Now that the 'remember' is enabled, I think the default should be changed back.? Either way, there will be some members that aren't comfortable changing to another setting, so there will be complaints.

Duane
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