Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting - punctuation aside

开云体育

Chris,

after that can you address the problem of not using capitals at all; i hate that. On one group I inhabit (not this one!) there are a few members who not only fail to capitalise properly but also dispense with any recognisable punctuation.

itsjustamatteroftrainingthebrainwhichisamazinglyadaptableinhumanbeingsnevermindotherspecies
ofcoursemanypeopledonotwanttohavetheirbrainstrained
theotherbenefitofpunctuationandconventionslikewordspacingisthatspellcheckerscancreativelymisinterprettypos
cheerstim

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Brian Vogel

#17016

Chris,

? ? ? ? ? ? ? In absolute terms, we're in agreement, but in day-to-day practical terms, we're not.? In this context, it seems to me that it's obvious that I'm replying to your post praising my statement about how to write but taking issue with my caveat.? Even if I hadn't written that out, I think most e-mail readers could follow it.? I presume that people follow topics/threads AND that they read the entire thread before they even think of responding to any single item in it.? That's why threaded view came into existence in e-mail clients.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? The only time I cut breaks for all caps is for visually impaired individuals who've identified themselves as such at some point (and probably intermittently, since there will always be new members who don't know).? ?It is long standing net tradition that all caps, in cyber communication, means shouting.? Above, that AND is not only in all caps but bold and underlined for a reason.? ?It's not my fault if someone decides that they can reply to something without having caught up, and looks like a fool as a result.? You have obligations as a reader just as I do as a writer.

--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham

Re: How much help do members need, and what kind?

#17015

Whilst I agree with most of what you say in your second paragraph, Chris, there is the other side.? I've seen several messages on this group which are incomprehensible without knowing to which message the writer is replying.? So to include the latest letter in the series is helpful to those who have not maybe been following the trend.? This letter might be an example....

FWIW IMHO,
Peter

On 06/06/2019 12:28, Chris Jones via Groups.Io wrote:

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 05:44 PM, Frances wrote:

I like to help edit the GMF wiki. I can point people to it or specific spots when they have a problem.
As do I. However, I get irked when members (not of GMF!) seem incapable of the most basic of functions, and / or don't even consult their own group's wiki. On occasions - admittedly fairly rare - when given specific guidance they still manage to get it wrong.

A perpetual problem on many (most?) groups seems to be a failure, appearing on occasions to be a blank refusal, to trim off reams of previous material so that the vast bulk of any post is yet another copy of what has been sent before. On a moderated group this can be caught by a moderator (although repeatedly having to trim peoples' posts does get tedious) but on an unmoderated group, although a moderator may edit a post to remove superflous material on the web UI, an over - long email has already been sent to members, very possibly eroding their data allowances.

Why is it some people are apparently incapable of selective quoting when posting by email? Is it a lack of capability or simple laziness?

Chris

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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Glenn Glazer

#17014

I get that. I just don't like being shouted at.

Best,

Glenn

Show quoted text

On 6/6/2019 12:56, Larry McElhiney via Groups.Io wrote:

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them change case.? (Slight mixing of metaphor.)

?

Sometimes we lose sight of what the audience wants and needs.? Mostly they want to communicate ideas using a Group like this.? If there is a too-rigid structure, they will often just move on.? Ultimately, for everyone we "teach" to do it the "right" way, two or more will come along and do it differently, in my experience.

?

Larry

?

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?
?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

[excess quote and ad removed by moderator]

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17013

Hi

i can reply with a photo from my iPhone. Here’s what it looks like.?

Frances

--

/g/GroupManagersForum/wiki

/static/help
More help: use the search button at the top of the Messages list.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17012

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 08:04 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

It's my responsibility, as a writer, to make sure that what I write can be followed within a self-contained message.?

Though I generally abhor Mission Statements I think people should print that sentence off and pin it on the wall in front of them. Pity it's too long to have as a screen saver.

?When it's a direct response to the last thing said, generally no quoting is necessary,

Although you do apply a caveat to that in your next sentence, by and large I would disagree. Just quoting a sentence from the post to which you are responding usually makes it much clearer to the reader. My preferred usage is the web UI, where is it much easier to refer back to a previous post than finding a previous email, but even then it only needs someone - just one - to put a message between the post to which you are responding and yours to sow uncertainty.

A bit later Glenn Glazer wrote: let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

after that can you address the problem of not using capitals at all; i hate that. On one group I inhabit (not this one!) there are a few members who not only fail to capitalise properly but also dispense with any recognisable punctuation.

Grrr..

Chris </grumpy>

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17011

开云体育

Well, my friend would call me on skype and shout at me the response. That got my attention right quick. Lol! But since that is not an option here, maybe virtual shouting back? JK. I've ben guilty of doing that by accident so I need to watch my own self as well.

Blessings and happy Thursday

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and ?tutorials go
and for hosting options go
to subscribe to the feed click

Our channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 10:57, Glenn Glazer wrote:

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17010

The same Apple Mail app which will not currently connect with Yahoo because of changes in the Yahoo Security.??

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 3:06:03 PM EDT, Ken Kloeber via Groups.Io <KWKloeber@...> wrote:

From Apple support:

"an attachment must be included in the body of an email message sent from the Apple Mail app, the option to add an attachment (as the AOL app does) is currently not available."

effed up, 'eh? Per usual for Apple.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17009

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them change case.? (Slight mixing of metaphor.)

Sometimes we lose sight of what the audience wants and needs.? Mostly they want to communicate ideas using a Group like this.? If there is a too-rigid structure, they will often just move on.? Ultimately, for everyone we "teach" to do it the "right" way, two or more will come along and do it differently, in my experience.

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 3:05:12 PM EDT, Glenn Glazer <glenn.glazer@...> wrote:

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting
subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17008

From Apple support:

"an attachment must be included in the body of an email message sent from the Apple Mail app, the option to add an attachment (as the AOL app does) is currently not available."

effed up, 'eh? Per usual for Apple.

Re: top posting vs bottom posting vs quoting

#17007

开云体育

My output defaults to top quoting. I’ve gotten to like it that way. But do encourage people to strip excess quoting.

?

~ Bob S

?

On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami

?

Actually, it is easier for screen reader users to top post. It makes it easier for us to read stuff right away so top posting in the blind community is more than helpful. I've noticed that since about 2001 when I first started dealing with email and news groups etc.
Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Glenn Glazer

#17006

Once you solve this, let me know how to prevent people from putting subject lines in all caps...

Best,

Glenn

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17005

...and for our individual groups:

The?Attachments?drop – down menu provides the following options:

Allow
Bounce
Strip
Moderate

So there might be no attachments allowed on a specific group.

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17004

Hi Duane,?

You are correct, it is the "horse of a different color".? The message quoting issue bothers some, but since messages can be read and responded to in several different ways, it is difficult to "solve".

Reading email, reading online or digests are sometimes difficult hills to climb for someone who just wants to read a response.

Larry

"Learn from the mistakes of others, You'll never live long enough to make them all yourself!"?

(No trees were harmed in the sending of this message, however, a significant number of electrons were quite inconvenienced.)

On Thursday, June 6, 2019, 1:34:07 PM EDT, Duane <txpigeon@...> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

these threaded forum servers

I think that's part of the problem.? Groups.io is not a forum system, it's an email list that has a web presence, so it handles things a bit differently than something like phpBB.? Many folks don't understand the difference.

Duane
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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

Brian Vogel

#17003

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 01:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

You seem to be under the impression that most e-mail interface users even know what you speak of exists.? ?Let me disabuse you of that notion (and I had to be disabused of it myself).

Also, threading has nothing to do with ease of reading.? ?I have often composed, or read, point-by-point responses to several different prior messages rolled into a single reply.? It is essential in those cases, at least if you want to be kind to your reader, to quote the point you're replying to and place the reply immediately beneath it so that context is clear and preserved.? I'll never expect that someone should have to go back and re-read past messages if they have, perhaps, forgotten who said exactly what and when.? It's my responsibility, as a writer, to make sure that what I write can be followed within a self-contained message.? ?When it's a direct response to the last thing said, generally no quoting is necessary, but that's often not the case, and particularly on a topic that may be in "hot and heavy" mode in terms of volume of messages.

?
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.

? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17002

Lol! Good valid point. I have to laugh at your analogy there. Hehahaha.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP.

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 10:21, Larry McElhiney via Groups.Io wrote:

?

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

No one's agenda is going to necessarily convince anyone else to change their own process.? It is too difficult to meet everyone's needs, so most folks just pick a style which works for them and continues with it.

(Personally, I can't even convince someone else how to install the toilet paper roll. :-)

?

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#17001

On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 12:29 PM, Larry McElhiney wrote:

these threaded forum servers

I think that's part of the problem.? Groups.io is not a forum system, it's an email list that has a web presence, so it handles things a bit differently than something like phpBB.? Many folks don't understand the difference.

Duane
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Help: /static/help
GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Search button at the top of Messages list
A few site FAQs: /static/pricing#frequently-asked-questions

Re: Attaching photos #howtoguide #wiki

#17000

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 05:14 PM, Ken Kloeber wrote:

Pics end up inline with the msg, text anywhere I want to put it. Ergo:

Except that when it gets posted in the archives of the group, the photo becomes an emailed attachment and is at the bottom of the message, as you can see here:
/g/GroupManagersForum/message/16985

Duane
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GMF's Wiki: /g/GroupManagersForum/wiki
Search button at the top of Messages list
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Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#16999

With these threaded forum servers, there is no need to top post, bottom post or quote, as you can force the message into a thread.

No one's agenda is going to necessarily convince anyone else to change their own process.? It is too difficult to meet everyone's needs, so most folks just pick a style which works for them and continues with it.

(Personally, I can't even convince someone else how to install the toilet paper roll. :-)

Re: top posting vs bottomposting vs quoting

#16998

开云体育

First of all, love your sig. It's true. And second of all, I doubt that the practice will ever happen in the community as we are very stubborn. The only way I trim is if I get a message that x message could not be sent due to size limits, but that's the only way. Since i have that off on all of my groupsI would not be surprised if messages sent on lists of mine and probably others, are more than maybe 10 to 20 and higher kb in size.

Anyway Take care all and be blessed.

Sarah Alawami, owner of TFFP. . For more info go to our This is also our libsyn page as well.
For stuff we sell, mac training materials and ?tutorials go
and for hosting options go
to subscribe to the feed click

Our channel is also a good place for an announce only in regard to podcasts, contests, etc.

Finally, to become a patron and help support the podcast go

Show quoted text

On 6 Jun 2019, at 9:23, Brian Vogel wrote:

Sarah,

? ? ? ? ? ?As you well know, I am familiar with you and familiar with what goes on in the blind community.? ?The issue is not with top posting, which has become far more common everywhere, the issue is with not bothering to trim anything, which is absolutely rampant on the blind lists (two of which I moderate on).

? ? ? ? ? ?It has been accepted, and sadly in my opinion, that deleting the material below what is being posted is optional or just not required.? And that makes it harder for many, including screen reader users, to get focus only on the actual response.

? ? ? ? ? ?I've been castigated on multiple occasions for not using top-posting exclusively, and I will never do so exclusively.? ?If there is a need to preserve a line or two from a previous message so that it's clear what statement I'm actually replying to I will do what is common practice everywhere else:? top quote the bit for context preservation followed by my response.

? ? ? ? ? ?You and I have almost always been "on the same page" overall, and there are certain practices that are (or at least were) common with regard to quotation trimming in particular that really need to be adopted on the blind lists.? Getting rid of pages of bottom quoted material can be done with a CTRL+A followed by a backspace or Delete key before composing a response, and really should be done and expected to be done.? ?I can't mount that battle, though, as all it will do is get me called nasty names and the claim be made, incorrectly as always, that I have no idea what the challenges are with regard to computer use and being blind.? That change is going to have to be driven, if it ever even starts, from within the community itself.
--
Brian

? ?Some questions don't have answers, which is a terribly difficult lesson to learn.
? ? ? ? ? ?~ Katharine Graham