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Michael,
I read through hundreds of these studies every few days. I cannot
make a promise that I will find that particular study but I will try.

Paul

--- In FlaxSeedOil2@..., "Michael Dorfman" <md@k...>
wrote:

Paul,
I, for one, would be very interested in seeing the actual study.
I have read a few studies wherein "omega 3's" were seen in some

negative

manner,
but where the source of the omega 3's was food that contained far

more omega

6's

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Cates" <paerca@h...>
To: <FlaxSeedOil2@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: [FlaxSeedOil2] Re: Vitamin C

I recently read a scientific paper on the action of Vitamin C and

E

on the action of omega 3's ability to slow the growth of cancer.

It

turns out that the action of C and E inhibited omega 3's ability

to

slow cancer even though they didn't know by what action. If I can
find that study again I will post it.
Paul

--- In FlaxSeedOil2@..., "Catherine Coy"
<catherinecoy@c...> wrote:

What about Vitamin C supplementation as an adjunct to Budwig?

Linus Pauling did lots of valuable work re cancer/Vitamin C that
makes me think it's invaluable.

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilhelm Hansen
To: FlaxSeedOil2@...
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [FlaxSeedOil2] Co-enzyme Q10


Hi Mark,
I don't know for sure. Questions like that are hard to

answer. I

read a book on CoQ-10 in the mid 1990s and have been taking it

since

then but in a much smaller dose than what you are taking. I still
have a bottle but rarely take it now.

It is said to be a powerful antioxidant. Consider this in

connection with my earlier post to Paul today. Also consider that
Dr.Budwig used no antioxidants nor any other pills. She had
extraordinary successes with her cancer patients without any

pills.

Wilhelm


I wonder if anyone can tell me if 400mg a day of Co-enzyme

Q10

would

conflict with the Budwig protocol?
Mark





Note:
The contents of the posts on FlaxSeedOil2 are purely

educational

and are not intended to diagnose or treat any illness. Always

consult

your doctor about the diagnosis and treatment of health problems.

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Omaga-3s can also be absorbed through the skin from other oils, notably from FO. Eldi Oils are a special blend of oils which with a particular effectiveness. I don't know the formula nor why it is specially effective.

It is only available in Germany because that is where Dr. Johanna Budwig developed it and that is where it is being made. I doubt that the sales are high enough to warrant outlets elsewhere in the world. Also, by having to go back to the source, one is more assured of fresh stock.

I wouldn't argue about $98 total for two bottles. I know it is a lot of money for some of us, but if that increases my chances for survival - so be it. Consider it a one time expense. The Budwig Diet would still be the cheapest protocol you can find. Many people spend that much on a couple bottles of pills.

Wilhelm

Perhaps upping your water intake might help make it lighter?

Sue in Ohio

Dr. Abram Hoffer suggested 600 mg of CoQ10/day. I can't see how this would
conflict with the Budwig protocol - help if anything.
Jerry Mittelman, DDS, FAPM
- - - A word to the wise: Prevention

Catherine,
If you look at the research study in msg# 938 which I referred to this morning and which Paul is also referring to, you will see that the two antioxidants that were found to reduce the anti-cancer effect of FO, were vitamin E and vitamin C. What we don't know is whether the anti-cancer effect was reduced because of the vitamin E, or because of the vitamin C or because of a combined effect. Since the researchers did not answer that, I cannot be sure either. From what I have read by Dr.Budwig, she mentions antioxidants in general, not the individual ones.

Linus Pauling sure did great work. So did Johanna Budwig. Pauling knew of Budwig's work and did not use it. Budwig knew of Pauling's work and did not use it.

I used to be one of the original vitamin C proponents beginning in the early 1960s when 100 mg per tablet was about the highest level you could find. That was before Linus Pauling's work popularized vitamin C. Unfortunately, vitamin C didn't prevent my wife from getting cancer in the mid 1970s. I did not know about Dr.Budwig then, but had I known, I am confident that her cancer and subsequent surgery would have been avoided.

When I bought Pauling's book "Cancer and Vitamin C", shortly after it was published in 1981, I was disappointed with the results he and Dr.Cameron got in that Scottish Hospital and I felt I could not rely on it in a big way for cancer prevention, but I kept taking it along with just about everything else that came along and that sounded convincing. I realize that since then more work has been done on vitamin C, and that Rath has taken this work further in conjunction with other nutrients, but my former confidence in supplemental vitamin C has never been quite the same.

Then in 2000, I found out about Dr.Budwig. My disappointment with Pauling's cancer results gave way to amazement with what I read of Budwig. That seemed to be the answer. The more I read, the more I became enthused and I have concentrated on her work ever since then.

I gradually dropped almost all supplements that I have been taking. Now I hardly take any of them anymore.

Consider is that there have been healthy people around who lived long and productive lifes long before Linus Pauling's work with vitamin C and long before Szent-Georgi discovered it in 1937. These people in former times obviously received adequate and high quality vitamin C from fresh fruit and vegetables. This vitamin C in its natural complex is of high quality - higher in quality IMO than the man-made ascorbic acid, or in whatever form it is taken.

It is quite different with essential fatty acids. They are needed for the utilization of the most basic of all our requirements: Oxygen. Without EFAs we literally suffocate. Yet the very important LNA component of the EFAs, which also has been around for eons, has gradually been replaced with hydrogenated fats by an ignorant and greedy industry in the last hundred years or so, to the point where the LNA is almost eliminated from our diets. This two pronged attack on our health (removal of LNA and introduction of hydrogenated killer fats) is more than we can stand. More and more people fall ill with all kinds of degenerative diseases, mostly cancer. This is where the Budwig Diet comes in, either to correct the health problem or to prevent it in the first place.

I would not risk reducing the effectiveness of the Budwig Diet, while taking it to fight cancer, by taking antioxidant supplements of any kind, including vitamin C, unless someone can say for sure that it is not a problem. Remember, Dr.Budwig did not give her patients any pills and look at her success rate.

Wilhelm

Paul,
I, for one, would be very interested in seeing the actual study.
I have read a few studies wherein "omega 3's" were seen in some negative
manner,
but where the source of the omega 3's was food that contained far more omega
6's

Quacky in the sense of there is one oil in the
whole world that can deliver omega-3s through the
skin and it is in Germany, sounds quacky.
However if she isn't saying that but saying that
getting omega-3's through the skin or anyway you
can is desireable and these oil penetrate best is
okay. I just wonder why they can only be gotten
in Germany?
.>
From: "Wilhelm Hansen" <wilhelmh@...>
Subject: Re: Eldi Oils versus other Omega 3

Why would you call it
"quacky"? Dr.Budwig knew exactly what she was doing

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around

This is so sad. Here's another cancer patient who won't take personal responsibility for manifesting restored health. He thinks that all he has to do is "find" a liver and everything's going to be OK. Forget that he'll have to take immune suppressive drugs for the rest of his life.

I recently read a scientific paper on the action of Vitamin C and E
on the action of omega 3's ability to slow the growth of cancer. It
turns out that the action of C and E inhibited omega 3's ability to
slow cancer even though they didn't know by what action. If I can
find that study again I will post it.
Paul

--- In FlaxSeedOil2@..., "Catherine Coy"
<catherinecoy@c...> wrote:

What about Vitamin C supplementation as an adjunct to Budwig?

Linus Pauling did lots of valuable work re cancer/Vitamin C that
makes me think it's invaluable.

----- Original Message -----
From: Wilhelm Hansen
To: FlaxSeedOil2@...
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [FlaxSeedOil2] Co-enzyme Q10


Hi Mark,
I don't know for sure. Questions like that are hard to answer. I

read a book on CoQ-10 in the mid 1990s and have been taking it since
then but in a much smaller dose than what you are taking. I still
have a bottle but rarely take it now.

It is said to be a powerful antioxidant. Consider this in

connection with my earlier post to Paul today. Also consider that
Dr.Budwig used no antioxidants nor any other pills. She had
extraordinary successes with her cancer patients without any pills.

Wilhelm


I wonder if anyone can tell me if 400mg a day of Co-enzyme Q10

would

conflict with the Budwig protocol?
Mark





Note:
The contents of the posts on FlaxSeedOil2 are purely educational

and are not intended to diagnose or treat any illness. Always consult
your doctor about the diagnosis and treatment of health problems.

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





--------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:


b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
FlaxSeedOil2-unsubscribe@...

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of

Service.

Wilhelm,
The references to the cox inhibitors is in message I posted #20986.
This was taken from a post by the authors of www.flaxrd.com .
I am hoping that the action of 5 lo inhibitors is after the main
conversions of omega 3 and that the specific cox 2 inhibition does
not effect the conversion of omega 3. I don't know and I would like
to know an answer.
Paul

--- In FlaxSeedOil2@..., "Wilhelm Hansen" <wilhelmh@t...>
wrote:

Paul,
Interesting stuff. Do you rember where you read it?

Wilhelm

What about Vitamin C supplementation as an adjunct to Budwig? Linus Pauling did lots of valuable work re cancer/Vitamin C that makes me think it's invaluable.

Hi Mark,
I don't know for sure. Questions like that are hard to answer. I read a book on CoQ-10 in the mid 1990s and have been taking it since then but in a much smaller dose than what you are taking. I still have a bottle but rarely take it now.

It is said to be a powerful antioxidant. Consider this in connection with my earlier post to Paul today. Also consider that Dr.Budwig used no antioxidants nor any other pills. She had extraordinary successes with her cancer patients without any pills.

Wilhelm


I wonder if anyone can tell me if 400mg a day of Co-enzyme Q10 would
conflict with the Budwig protocol?
Mark

There are many rumors floating around.
She fell in her home in late 2002 and broke her upper arm. She was hospitalized and went downhill as a result of her injury. She was then placed in a nursing home where she died in May 2003 at age 94. Until her accident she was still looking after her patients.

Wilhelm

Not to take away from the really important discussion of her work, but does anyone know the circumstances of Dr. Budwig's death? I heard (may just be an unfounded rumor) that her research facilities burned down. I hope that she, however, passed peacefully of old age.

Denzil,
I agree with Rhoda that Barleans is not the place ask for the translation of the next Budwig book. Her family in Germany are the ones to ask. You can email them, the addresses are in our files. Of the books that I know, the best candidates for translation would be her 1999 book "Krebs - Das Problem und die L?sung" (Cancer - The Problem and the Solution) and her 1977 book "Der Tod des Tumors - Band II" (The death of the Tumor - Vol.II), but I am sure that there are other good ones too. Don't forget, most of them are out of print, even in German.

Wilhelm



We are all referring to Dr Budwig's books especially the two translated to English in 1994. It seems to me about time something was done to translate another book. To decide which one we would have to be guided by those who can read the German originals.
Both the English versions advertise Barleans flaxseed oil. What about an email petition by members of this group to Barleans asking them to sponsor the next translation?
Denzil

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,
I get a messages like that too each time I email a post to this
group. I am trying to get to the bottom of it.

I am sending this message from the Yahoo site. I want to see if that
gives me a Discover Card response as well.

Wilhelm


--- In FlaxSeedOil2@..., "WILLIAM TRUMP" <owltree@p...>
wrote:

Hi, I responded to the BOOK petition and got the Discover Card

response.

Bill

Paul,
Interesting stuff. Do you rember where you read it?

Wilhelm


Recently I have read that the omega 3 pathway requires the same
enzyme that cox 2 inhibitors inhibit. Here is a description of that
pathway.

"It turns out that both the omega-3 and omega-6 pathway utilize the
same enzymes, and both omega-6 and omega-3 fatty acids have to
compete for these enzymes in order to produce their final product.
Studies have reported that the enzymes used in these pathways were
found to prefer the omega-3 pathway. It turns out then that in diets
high in omega-3 fatty acids, most of the enzymes will be "busy"
converting the omega-3 acids.

The omega-6 fatty acids, Dihommogamma-Linoleic Acid (DGLA) in
particular, can be converted to either the anti-inflammatory PG1 or
into arachidonic acid (AA), a precursor of PG2. Conversion of DGLA
into PG1 does not require any enzymes, but conversion of DGLA into AA
requires the enzyme delta-5 desaturase. In diets high in omega-3,
most of the delta-5 desaturase will be used in the omega-3 pathway;
few delta-5 desaturase will be available to convert DGLA into
arachidonic acid, and subsequently, PG2. DGLA ends up being converted
into the anti-inflammatory PG1 and inflammation is therefore
decreased.

In a diet low in omega-3 fatty acids, large quantities of delta-5
desaturase enzymes are available to convert DGLA into AA. The
available AA is then converted into the inflammatory PG2. Thus, the
more omega-3 fatty acids present in our body, the fewer enzymes are
available for converting omega-6 fatty acids into the inflammatory
prostaglandins."

So if I am deciphering this correctly, omega 3 pathway is naturally
an inhibitor of arachidonic acid and if we inhibit the enzyme that
inhibits 5 lo/cox 2, we also inhibit the conversion of omega 3s. It
looks like we would need to do one or the other. Since the Budwig
diet already "forbids" beef, lamb and pork (the major contributors of
non-converted by the body) arachidonic acid, and the body also
prefers omega 3 pathway over the omega 6, then it would seem that the
Budwig Diet is all that is needed and one more reason the diet works.
It also seems that the only supplement she (Budwig) wanted is yeast
flakes which provides B vitamins.

More research needs to be done to determine if curcumin inhibits
arachidonic acid conversion to 5 hete without the inhibition of omega
3 pathway. If so I would like to know so that I may add it back into
my supplement plan. I do not think it wise to take anything that
will inhibit the omega 3 pathway and therefore inhibit the Budwig
diet.

Paul

Paul,

Sorry, I was busy but I want to get back to your post below. Thank you for identifying theses the message numbers.

As I mentioned on a number of occasions taking antioxidant supplements can interfere with the Budwig Diet (naturally occurring antioxidants in food are ok).

In that regard I find Greg Watson's post (msg # 938) is very interesting. I had not seen it because it was posted just before I joined this list and I missed it. Later, when he brought this subject up again, I took him up on it as I recall. The study he cites says that flaxseed oil (FO) has an anti-cancer effect (slowing tumor growth) but less so when antioxidants are added. This supports Dr.Budwig's position that antioxidants counter the effect of her diet.

Their finding seems to be right but their reasoning as to why it works like that and why it is suppressed with antioxidants is not right - at least not according to Dr.Budwig. The researchers and Greg Watson conclude that the cancer cells are killed by a massive onslaught of free radicals from rancid FO, and since antioxidants keep the oil from getting rancid, they interferes with this process. Neither of these two conclusions are right. If that were so, we may as well consume rancid FO in the first place - and we know that to be wrong.

According to Dr.Budwig the reason for the anti-cancer activity is that FO (combined with quark or CC) promotes bio-oxygenation and that antioxidants interfere with that process.

Wilhelm

Quackwatch's purpose is to promote burning, cutting, and Big
Pharma.

Its aim is to keep your attention away from the real quacks.

As for the "pro-alternative camp" being just as biased the other
way, you only need to read any alternative group to find opinions
all over the spectrum.

Quackwatch hammers its one point, over and over, till not even
an Excedrin'll help you. Quackwatch doesn't do it for free -- or
because it cares about your health.

Pro-alternatives are almost universally concerned only about
your getting well, whatever form that takes.

Hi, I responded to the BOOK petition and got the Discover Card response.
Bill