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on 4/8/03 6:04 PM, Dana at hoffmanwilson@... wrote:

PUH-LEASE don't worry about what your parents
and relatives want....it's YOUR life and your CHILDREN'S lives....just live
to make you all happy, and forget the rest.

Though I agree philosophically with all the responses, I'll just add this: I
have some relatives like this. Now that my kids are old enough to get it, I
sometimes ask them to hold off on things like candy before dinner at
grandma's house because I don't want my poor restricted nieces and nephews
to feel bad. It's not their fault that their parents have those rules and
it's often not worth the family hassle to make them go crying to their
parents "But Quinn gets to!" My kids can understand this and it's usually
no big deal.

Paula

You kill your black widow spiders? We don't, at least not in the
corners and such, they eat so many bugs we keep 'em around.

I thought daughter had been bit by one once so I called poison
control. They said they were not really a problem but to watch out
for kissing bugs.

Peggy

SandraDodd@... wrote:

I have a friend who never kills any spiders. After I had kids I developed
the irrational urge to flatten to a smear anything that might bite them or
sting them (centipedes and wasps) or put nasty germs on them (cock roaches).

Maybe now that Holly's getting big, that instinct will wane.

Sandra

Interesting. I've gotten a lot better about wanting to kill all bugs
since I had children. Not that I don't kill widows in the house, I
do, just not in the dark corners of areas that also get other bugs
in the summer time. We have paper wasps too and what is one to do
about them? Hysterically spraying a can of raid around was what I
was modeled as child and that really seemed a bit extreme once I
grew older.

Brown recluse are nasty -- did you have a long time healing?

Peggy

Ouch! That does sound dreadful. I've known a few people here in
Tucson who ended up in the hospital with intravenous anti-biotic
treatments for brown recluse. One lost his hearing due to the
antibiotics.

Peggy

SandraDodd@... wrote:

The older I get, the less interested in spirituality I've become. Not sure
why that is. Maybe it's a reaction to the prevailing "spirituality" where I
live (the same city with Bob Jones University). In the last few years I've
felt the most tremendous relief and pleasure in *not* looking for
spirituality or religion or God. And my youngest child has been around for
all of these changes in me. So far he seems okay with life as it is without
looking for something more. If I were to notice his becoming a spiritual
person like your son is Deb, I would be really unsure how to handle it. I'm
so skeptical at this point, I'm afraid that would come through in any
discussion. Using books like you have already and like lovemary suggested
seems a very good way to go.

Priss
whose best friend confounds this skepticism with some very odd experiences
with spirits <g>

I am not a particularly spiritual person and neither is my husband.
It was never our intention to keep religion or spirituality from our son
and most of our family members and friends are practicing members of
some religious organization. We have always tried to answer his
questions in a non biased way, ( I hope we succeeded ) and if he had
specific questions we tried to find answers.
I recently found some books on different faiths and they have been
helpful.

Well, here it is. My son is becoming a spiritual person. He recently
lost both his grandfathers. He was close to both of them and close to
their deaths as well as they were in our care at home during their final
illnesses. This may have a good deal to do with his pondering's lately,
I know.

He's not troubled, only curious. I know faith is a very personal thing.
I know my opinions have an influence on him. I'm just trying to be a
source of help and security to him while he finds answers that make sense
to him, without unduly influencing him to my way of thinking. This must
sound extremely naive but not being religious, it really never occurred
to me he'd have more than passing questions.

Any thoughts?
Deb L

Hi :-) *new person alert*

I have never regretted supporting my kids' interests, inexpensive, expensive,
or otherwise. Something takes place in the passionate pursuit which doesn't
necessarily show up right away.

There are gives and gets financially - - figure out what you can
realistically allot, and then brainstorm ways with him to earn the rest of
the money he needs. If he's truly passionate about obtaining the figures,
he'll find a way.

Sharon, whose children fortunately love Dungeons and Dragons, most of which
takes place in their heads.

I'm so skeptical at this point,
I'm afraid that would come through in
any
discussion.

Exactly. This is what I would like to avoid. I feel he deserves to
make up his own mind.
My son and I are vegan and his father is primarily a vegetarian. Dylan
didn't even know people ate animals until he was four years old. We were
visiting cousins who made a big deal out of it and then of course the
questions came. Since that time he has remained vegan even though we
have made it clear to him he can choose differently. He really loves
animals and can't imagine eating one.

I'm trying to approach the questions about religion in the same way.
Maybe, when he gets all the information he wants for now things will
settle into a kind of digestion stage.

Thanks to you, Priss and lovemary, for your thoughts.
Deb L

Howdy!
My son has become immersed in table top role playing games, Mordheim, 40K,
and now Battlefleet Gothic. It is very exciting to see his interest take off
in something that wasn't described by us, his parents. He has a good time
playing the games at the game parlor. Great so far. My concern is that he
spends all of his money on these games. These games are played with very
expensive models. My instincts are to let him figure out the value of the
games and the money. The instant he gets any money it is spent on the games.
The other night he was telling me how he could start building his next army
for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'm living
with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.

Does anyone else have this kind of experience? How did it turn out? I held
out till age ten for reading to click. When and how does a balance with
money come about? I am listening respectfully. And I do trust him to
eventually figure out that there is more to the world than these games.

So... we do celebrate Christmas. Up till now he has been spending his own
money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feeding this
money pit? What is learned by our excluding something that he has immense
interest in? It is just so darned expensive.

-Dan Vilter

Hi everyone,

I'm so excited to be a part of this new group. My name is Mimi. I
noticed I'm the 17th member to subscribe to this group. That
happens to be my second luckiest number!! My luckiest number
is #2. I was born on 2/2/59. My sister was born on the same day
exactly one year later. I have fraternal twin boys. After the twins
were born, it was obvious my new favorite number should be #2.

I originally joined the Unschooling.com list about 1 1/2 weeks
ago. Apparantly there was some kind of argument going on
which I didn't understand, participate in, or really wanted to find
out the details about. Today, I found out about this new list
Sandra Dodd created. So, here I am. It's exciting for me to come
in on the ground floor.

I plan to continue subscribing to the other list. I'm sure that
should be OK. If not, let me know and I'll drop the other list.

I learned about Unschooling in 1994, after reading John Holt's
"Learning All the Time". I consider it the most important book I
have ever read. It truly changed my life. My boys are 7 years old
and are unschooled. We enjoy life and learning in a very relaxed
and natural way every day.

I look forward to learning more about unschooling from you,
Sandra. I have read many good things about you. I wish this
new list much success.

Mimi

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:39:12 -0800 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:

These games are played with very expensive models.

This is totally off the subject, but I got a bunch of little figures by
Starlux and Britains at a thrift store and have been selling them on
ebay, having no idea what they were for... are you or your son familiar
with those brands?

And if he's interested in any of the ones I have left, he could basically
name his price... he might want to try shopping on ebay, too, there are a
lot of them for sale there.

The other night he was telling me how he could start building his next

army

for only $100 and to finish it would be about $250. I feel like I'm
living with a junkie. Computer games seem so cheap in comparison.

See, this just sounds so cool to me. I dunno. My daughter doesn't play
games like that yet, but her mindset on playmobil is sort of like this,
and I've really caught the fever and I'm always scouting for good deals
on the sets we (oops...;-) she needs. Of course, I'm a real bargain
hunter, so the thrill for me is finding the stuff cheap, whereas she's
fine with spending lots of money, she just wants to do good "setups".

I think of it as having a passion for something, and I value that highly.
People without passions are boring. ;-) I'm the same way, still, if that
helps. I learned to knit a couple of months ago and I've spent over $200.
I've almost finished a sweater now...

So... we do celebrate Christmas. Up till now he has been spending his

own

money (which he is now out of.) What learning comes from our feeding

this

money pit? What is learned by our excluding something that he has
immense interest in? It is just so darned expensive.

I've always figured that her money is her money, although I admit that I
occasionally try to talk her out of something that I think is a rip-off.
Doesn't usually work, though. She spent over $50 on an American Girls
fifties outfit for Halloween that I thought was so not worth it, but she
really wanted it...

I've always found that one learns an amazing amount when diving into a
new area of interest. I'm sure the games themselves are full of strategy
and rules and all, but there's also all the other info, about the pieces
and the people there and just everything, a whole world to learn about!

Dar
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Maybe you could order Christmas stuff through the shop where Kirby works! ?(Drugs, still, but discount drugs.)
This is no answer; this is just chitchat and commiseration.

I'm the enabling mom of the expensive game junkie. ?I *did* just spend on the order of a couple of hundred dollars at his game store, since the pusher (I mean owner) is having a 25% off sale this weekend.

An example for those who are not familiar with these particular games - it can easily cost $60.00 for a starter set of these pieces. ?That's enough to set up one kind of army but seemingly never the kind my son really wants. ?So then we end up having to buy the smaller adjunct boxed sets or blister cards. ?Yikes - it is never ending. ?You get a big fat manual when you buy the set, but then they change the rules sometimes so you have to buy what they call "codexes" to keep up with the changes. ?

Is it a strange coincidence that the owner reminds me of the comic book store guy from The Simpsons? ??I thought his sort of cranky personality might be enough to make Matthew give up the games, but instead, he's learning how to be around someone like that - a good lesson, I suppose. ?He spends enough time there that he *could* work there, but it's a fairly new store, and he only has one other employee - which could go a long way towards explaining why he's so cranky. ?

We've talked about how virtually everyone who plays these games (at this store, anyway) is an ADULT, with a JOB, but so far that doesn't seem to have dimmed his enthusiasm. ?Yesterday I talked about how when you pick an expensive hobby, like say, restoring a vintage car, you can't always just go out and buy the parts exactly when you need them - that sometimes you have to wait until your next paycheck. ?Granted, he's not paying rent yet or buying groceries but he has an allowance and it has to stretch the month. ?He was worried that when he started getting an allowance, that we wouldn't buy him anything any more. ?I assured him that I reserved the right to buy him stuff whenever I felt like it (which is still pretty often). ?I just can't make myself buy him this particular gaming stuff though - it seems that this is his thing and that he ought to finance it. ?It sounds a bit on re-reading this that we nag him about his interest, but we don't. ?We just talk about it when it comes up ?(which is all the time). ?

I DO know that he is getting a lot out of playing these games and hanging around the store - I'm mostly just blowing off steam. ?

Jocelyn

Well! These games sound totally cool. Where have I been?

My son spends all his money on Godzilla collectibles. We've just decided
it is the way of things.

Usually we all only have a limited amount of spending money and when it's
gone, that's it. He sometimes budgets his money but if the thing he
wants becomes available he'd spend any amount to get his hands on it. I
guess I haven't worried about it. ( Until now! Thanks a lot! )

It is spending money, right? He's not blowing your house payment or
anything?

That's funny about the cardboard crack. We refer to the Godzilla stuff
as monster crack!

Deb L

It is his spending money, and no, we aren't in danger of losing the house
yet. I guess what bugs me so much about this stuff is that it seems so
overpriced and that they keep you coming back for more with all the
add-on's.
Also, right now for example, he's just dying to have one of these books (I
never thought I'd have a problem buying him a book).
#1 - he's out of allowance money until the 1st of Dec.
1A - he's already "in debt" to us for half of his allowance because he just
had to have another army.
#2 - It's a $25.00 paperback.
#3 - I dunno - it just bugs me.
#4 - the war thing bothers me, but I realize that that is my problem to get
over or just stifle.

I guess I haven't worried about it. ( Until now! Thanks a lot! )

Yer welcome! Here, just in case you want to look...


In defense of the store, I have to say that they don't charge to participate
in tournaments like Wizards of the Coast does. When he was into Magic, it
was $5.00 a week to play there on Friday nights.

grumpy Jocelyn

From: ddzimlew@...
Reply-To: AlwaysLearning@...
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 17:12:53 -0700
To: AlwaysLearning@...
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Expensive Games

It is spending money, right? He's not blowing your house payment or
anything?

What if he was playing chess? (Play along with me here...) :)

Maybe chess wouldn't be *quite* as expensive, but it's easy for it to get
pricey. Tournament fees, books, a nicely weighted set, a nice board, a travel
set, a clock, more books, chess camp, another clock, classes, more books, a
tutor, more books... :)

People think chess players are really smart and are impressed by kids who are
serious about the game. It's a very interesting phenomenon. If I tell people
my kids spent all day playing games they're told they're lucky they didn't
have to work all day. If I tell people my kids spent all day playing chess
they're oohed and ahed over and congratulated for working so hard. It's
weird. The truth is that chess is not necessarily the most valuable game they
play, and good chess players are not on average any smarter than the rest of
us in other areas. Perception is everything.

The bad thing about your kid playing role playing games instead of chess is
that you'll have to defend it more to busybodies (including the nag inside
your head <g>) even though it's just as valuable in developing concentration,
logic, memory, all that good stuff. The good thing about your kid playing
role playing games instead of chess is that you probably won't find yourself
pushing and prodding him to develop his talents at the game in spite of your
best intentions. :)

The most sensible parents of serious young chess players I know have settled
into supporting the interest as much as they feel able while helping the kids
find ways to earn money to support their habit.

Deborah in IL

I guess what bugs me so much about this stuff is that it seems
so
overpriced and that they keep you coming back for more with all the
add-on's.

While I don't have experience with these games, I can certainly join in
the grumbling about stuff being overpriced. Our most recent experience
with this is the new Lego Bionicles. Too new to be turning up in second
hand stores or yard sales, and packaged in such a way that you end up
spending a small fortune to get a good set for a little builder. So you
have my sympathy. A lot of good that does you. <g>
Thanks for the web address. I think.
Deb L