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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Victoria Welch
On Thursday 05 April 2007, roylowenthal wrote:
Yup! That's the same sodium bisulphate as the pH down product forThankee Sir! Will head down there tomorrow, I only have a little of that left in the homebrew supplies. Time to stock up for another batch anyway. Unfortunately too late in the year to lager another batch out on the balcony :(. Take care, Vikki. [ ... ] --Would that work? Victoria Welch, WV9K/7 "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things." --John S. Mill |
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Re: through bore
Reaming it provides a smooth bore & ensures it's actually as big as
it claims to be. Roy --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "born4something" <ajs@...> wrote:
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Re: through bore
The practical problem is controlling the feed of a large drill
enlarging a hole; they tend to self feed at their spiral rate. It's easier to control a reamer's feed. Roy --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Ellis Cory" <ellis103@...> wrote: hole, a drill would do just as well, except a 13/16" drill bit requires more torque than the lathe can deliver.......... rate and cutting speed. If a drill was fed at the same or slower rate, then the cut could be made. HTH |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Victoria Welch <wrlabs@...>
wrote: Hi Vikki, Well, I didn't mention that when I sat my last chemistry exam I burnt all my lecture notes BEFORE the results came back. No way I was repeating that subject even if they did let me back! Thirty odd years on, I design and manufacture industrial ozone generating equipment. I still don't understand the chemistry but I can tear O2 molecules apart with brute force (high voltages) and even do titrations to measure the output with a recipe / cheat sheet, courtesy of an industrial chemist on the west coast. But understand it? What was Seargent Schultz's famous line? John |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Yup! That's the same sodium bisulphate as the pH down product for
pools/spas. It's quicker than alum (any of the common variants) & easy to get. Roy --- In 7x12minilathe@..., Victoria Welch <wrlabs@...> wrote: the theywork. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the productid=285&cat=0&page=1just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodiumFound this at my local homebrew store: with the best firepower.-- The Warlord (_Ivory_, Mick Resnick) |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Jeff Demand
Ian,
Am no chemist but have used Sodium Bisulphate (meta too I think) for broken drills etc in gold, silver, and aluminium. For aluminium somewhat dilute nitric would be faster but much harder to obtain these days and not nearly as safe from a handling aspect. For gold and silver it saved my reputation on a number of occasions in commercial shops. Jeff * REPLY SEPARATOR * On 4/5/2007 at 11:37 PM Ian Foster wrote: G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.1:09 PM - Demand Designs Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing jdemand@... - |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Victoria Welch
On Thursday 05 April 2007, Ian Foster wrote:
G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.Found this at my local homebrew store: Would that work? Convenient place to get to (something special in Seattle) and I do already go there from time to time. Embarrassed to admit what chemistry I did take has long since been forgotten <blush>. Thanks & take care, Vikki. -- Victoria Welch, WV9K/7 It is my reading of history that Allah usually favours the army with the best firepower.-- The Warlord (_Ivory_, Mick Resnick) |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do the work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium), they just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium sulphate. In my discussions it can sound like the ions making up the repective salts just combine in solution, this is not the case. The solution is just a soup of dissociated ions which don't come together until they become insoluble, either by their inherent properies (as for insoluble salts like calcium carbonate) or by concentatration which leads to crystalisation (as for common salt, sodium chloride). In Oz you can readily obtain Sodium Metabisulphate for sterilising home brew gear and for fruit preservation, Ive used it myself in that role. The metabisulphate may have too high a pH to be effective. Andy! Here's another chemical to test. Safer than making Gun Cotton! One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...> wrote: jewellery pickle is labelled " Sodium Bisulfate". The PH down might bea 'sodium meta bisulfate' but it is reported to be a cleaner (and cheaper)replacement for the jewellery standard Sparax brand. A totally different chemicalthan alum but it has worked for me in the past and is always available in mystudio.
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Jeff Demand
Ian,
For some more info to confuse the chemistry freaks... the jewellery pickle is labelled " Sodium Bisulfate". The PH down might be a 'sodium meta bisulfate' but it is reported to be a cleaner (and cheaper) replacement for the jewellery standard Sparax brand. A totally different chemical than alum but it has worked for me in the past and is always available in my studio. The Ph stuff will have to wait for testing... 6" of white shit today and probably another 6" by morning, good thing I didn't store the snow blower quite yet. Vermont CAN be interesting if you have a really twisted sense of humour ;-) Jeff * REPLY SEPARATOR * On 4/5/2007 at 10:15 PM Ian Foster wrote: G'day Andy,1:09 PM - Demand Designs Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing jdemand@... - |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
G'day Andy,
Perhaps you could do a few extra-curricular experiments. Drill a hole in pieces of aluminium and then drive steel screws into into each then. No need to thread the hole. Not quite the same as our problem because there are no flutes for the electrolyte to pass through; this may require some thought, eg grind flats on the side of the screws. I'd start with the cheapest and most readily accessible alum. Or get what ever varieties are available and do comparative tests, hence the number of pieces. The trouble is we leave such experimentation until it is life and death not an experiment. Some how I think the straight aluminium sulphate may he the best. As I said in an rearlier post the aluminium ions would deposit out of the solution as Aluminium Hydroxide, whilst the hydroxides of potasium and ammonia are water soluble and would attack the native aluminium. But only experimentation will tell. One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
andrew franks
Thanks, Ian. My chemistry stopped with school "A-level" (the exams that qualify you for uni). We had opportunities for extra-curricular experiments making gun-cotton, benzedrine etc. Much more exciting than the H & S regulated stuff that they do now. Do you reckon "any old alum" will do the trick for taps stuck in aluminium, or should I be looking for "potash alum" or "ammonium alum"?
Andy --------------------------------- Now you can scan emails quickly with a reading pane. Get the new Yahoo! Mail. |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Hi Jeff,
What a neat idea. After the work's been buggered I can save the tap to present to the tool store as evidence! Yeah, Ian sorted me out on that. But I'm still not repeating CHEM- 101. <G> John --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...> wrote: work ;-) Alkalinity Increaser I have in the corner would be the same stuff?- |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Jeff Demand
John,
No, you want the acid PH down. Remember that alkaline stuff eats aluminium. Unless you really want to save the tap rather than the work ;-) Jeff * REPLY SEPARATOR * On 4/5/2007 at 4:41 AM born4something wrote: --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...>- Demand Designs Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing jdemand@... - |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
G'day John.
Had a few of those passes as well, Pure Mathematics if I recall, they didn't want to risk seeing me back. But I got through. I had to dig the chemistry text book out when I got involved in corrosion control, only made a little bit more sense! I have always enjoyed metallurgy (just to bring us back to topic). One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "born4something" <ajs@...> wrote: You won't be surprised to hear I got a "terminating pass" in chemistry at uni. What's that? It's a grade the School of Chemistry conceeds to non-chemical engineers that meets the chemistry pre- requisites for ANY engineering subject OUTSIDE of the school of Chemistry. It ensured they didn't have me repeat the subject. 'nuff said? John |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Hi Ian,
Oops, I misread Jeff's reference to "Ph down for swimming pools" as reducing acidity. Not quite right, eh? In fact, dead wrong. I have to confess to my Achilles heal here. I have an electrical engineering degree (even with honours!) but that came from a love of electrons. Once you introduce protons and neutrons they're contaminated and my eyes glaze over. You won't be surprised to hear I got a "terminating pass" in chemistry at uni. What's that? It's a grade the School of Chemistry conceeds to non-chemical engineers that meets the chemistry pre-requisites for ANY engineering subject OUTSIDE of the school of Chemistry. It ensured they didn't have me repeat the subject. 'nuff said? John --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Ian Foster" <fosterscons@...> wrote: You want a very ionic solution with a low pH which will attack theiron without attacking the aluminiun oxide. Whilst aluminium is moreacid radicals. To help, aluminium sulphate is insoluble and forms aworks in Hobart Tas. would not allow gavanized steel cable ladder butwould allow aluminium due to the suphurous atmosphere.quite corrosive to iron and is available as a fertiliser (as are most ofmy comments). If you could get it withour raising suspicsion,ammonium nitrate might also work.cuts you he will have a bottle of alum solution to apply to the cut.wrote: Alkalinity Increaser I have in the corner would be the same stuff? |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
G'day Andrew
I think it is the sulphate ions which do the damage to the iron. Both iron and aluminium are trivalent so this could help the reaction. Corrosion of the iron would be helped by it being an alloy so there would be galvanic couples on the iron/electrolyte interfacee at which accelerated erosion would occur. The aluminium ions in the electrolyte could be deposited as Aluminium Hyroxide leaving iron and sulphate ions. That's about the limit of my chemistry knowledge. Some years back I was involved in Cathodic Protection and have maintained some interest in corrosion matters since; few people seem to have any grasp of it or be aware of the issues involved. Regarding brass: There is a real risk that the zinc would be eroded from the brass preferentially to the copper in the alloy. You need an acid ion which would form insoluble and impervious salts with both copper and zinc; off hand I can't think of one. I think Copper Chloride is only partially soluble so it is possible that a zinc chloride solution could be used. It would need to be neutral so Killed Spirits of Salts may be the answer. A strong solution of common salt, Sodium chloride, might be worth a try. At least with brass the galvanic couple between the copper (in the alloy) and the iron would mean erosion of the iron. Regarding Yorkshire and Urine: It has been said that Yorkshire men are full of .... and wind, far be it for me to reinforce that! Urine was also collected by dyers (a name in my ancestry) because it acts like alum to fix dyes in cloth) One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian --- In 7x12minilathe@..., andrew franks <andyf1108@...> wrote: since I broke a tap in aluminium, so it's bound to be my turn again soon. I have been trying to find out what alum actually is. "True alum" seems to be the double sulphate of aluminium and either potassium or ammonia *, whereas "papermaker's alum" seems to be just hydrated aluminum sulphate. Which of these "alums" will attack taps broken off in aluminium, or will any of them work? And will the process work for brass, too?in the UK, to supply the Yorkshire alum makers with ammonia, when they weren't burning seaweed to get potassium!
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
andrew franks
I've been following this thread with interest; it's been ages since I broke a tap in aluminium, so it's bound to be my turn again soon. I have been trying to find out what alum actually is. "True alum" seems to be the double sulphate of aluminium and either potassium or ammonia *, whereas "papermaker's alum" seems to be just hydrated aluminum sulphate. Which of these "alums" will attack taps broken off in aluminium, or will any of them work?
And will the process work for brass, too? * apparently, there was once a thriving trade in human urine here in the UK, to supply the Yorkshire alum makers with ammonia, when they weren't burning seaweed to get potassium! Andy Ian Foster <fosterscons@...> wrote: Oh no John, No John, No John, No! G'day all, (had to include that!) Alkalinity increaser will raise the pH whereas Alum lowers the pH. You want a very ionic solution with a low pH which will attack the iron without attacking the aluminiun oxide. Whilst aluminium is more electropositive than iron its oxide protects it from attack by the acid radicals. To help, aluminium sulphate is insoluble and forms a protective coating also. (This does not apply to aluminum sulfate unless you stir vigourously.) Interestingly the Electrolytic Zinc works in Hobart Tas. would not allow gavanized steel cable ladder but would allow aluminium due to the suphurous atmosphere. I have wondered whether Ammonium Sulphate would also work, it is quite corrosive to iron and is available as a fertiliser (as are most of my comments). If you could get it withour raising suspicsion, ammonium nitrate might also work. BTW, Alum is a styptic which causes blood to clot, if your barber cuts you he will have a bottle of alum solution to apply to the cut. One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "born4something" <ajs@...> wrote:
--------------------------------- Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now... |
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Re: through bore
Roy wrote..........A reamer takes less power to drive. For making the hole, a drill would do just as well, except a 13/16" drill bit requires more torque than the lathe can deliver..........
I'm not sure this is the full story. Reamers are fed at a much lower rate and cutting speed. If a drill was fed at the same or slower rate, then the cut could be made. HTH Ellis |
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
Oh no John, No John, No John, No!
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Show quoted text
G'day all, (had to include that!) Alkalinity increaser will raise the pH whereas Alum lowers the pH. You want a very ionic solution with a low pH which will attack the iron without attacking the aluminiun oxide. Whilst aluminium is more electropositive than iron its oxide protects it from attack by the acid radicals. To help, aluminium sulphate is insoluble and forms a protective coating also. (This does not apply to aluminum sulfate unless you stir vigourously.) Interestingly the Electrolytic Zinc works in Hobart Tas. would not allow gavanized steel cable ladder but would allow aluminium due to the suphurous atmosphere. I have wondered whether Ammonium Sulphate would also work, it is quite corrosive to iron and is available as a fertiliser (as are most of my comments). If you could get it withour raising suspicsion, ammonium nitrate might also work. BTW, Alum is a styptic which causes blood to clot, if your barber cuts you he will have a bottle of alum solution to apply to the cut. One good turn deserves another. Regards, Ian --- In 7x12minilathe@..., "born4something" <ajs@...> wrote:
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Re: Broke the tap, Grrrrr.
--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...>
wrote: Hi Jeff, How about dentures? <G> More seriously, would I be correct in assuming this bag of Alkalinity Increaser I have in the corner would be the same stuff? John |
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