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--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "oneacmename" <daniel@...> wrote:

Anyone else having problems trying to download files in the files
section?

Nope, ok here.

Stu G

Ian wrote.....If the drill self feeds it breaker its grip with the taper and slips.......

This only happens if the forces are excessive.
The depth of cut on each lip will be less than 8 thou.
The rate of feed is entirely depepndant on how slow you turn the handle.
The flute angle (rake) can be overcome by grinding a flat each lip, as for drilling brass.
This is the way I have done many jobs without the drill pulling out. The last one opening up a hole to 1.25 ".
Reamers are very expensive for a one off job. You could try and get on the Varmit Al's reamer queue, or just buy a 13/64" drill and DIY.
HTH
Ellis

Sulphate... shmulphate. You guys are so far over my head here I can't
even participate. I do believe I've learned something here though,
thanks for that. Given what I've read though, I think I'd opt for
the "build an EDM unit" method. Kills two birds with one stone. 1)
Gets the tap out. 2) Have a new tool in my arsenal. And the square
hole thing really facinates me. :D Something about boiling acid on
the SWMBO's kitchen stove just won't float around my shack.

Oh, and btw, stop using those high-falutin words around
here. "Pedantic"? I aint even gonna look that one up. :)

Rance


--- In 7x12minilathe@..., andrew franks <andyf1108@...>
wrote:

Hello Folks,
To be pedantic, I think that the sterilising stuff is sodium

metabisulphite (Na2 S2 O5), rather than metabisulphate, but I don't
suppose that would make any practical difference. I might also
experiment with sulphuric (battery) acid. When I made my first
attempts at anodising, it seemed to leave the aluminium alone (no
doubt because of the oxide layer), so maybe that would attack the
broken tap and not the aluminium alloy it was stuck in. I suppose an
initial rinse in solvent would help, by getting rid of any cutting
oil and allowing the chosen chemical to get at the steel.

Andy

No, I just downloaded 2 DOC files and watched a MOV of the Adj.
Backplate. :)

However, are we back to duplicate posts again? Some look very familiar.
8-|

Hello Folks,
To be pedantic, I think that the sterilising stuff is sodium metabisulphite (Na2 S2 O5), rather than metabisulphate, but I don't suppose that would make any practical difference. I might also experiment with sulphuric (battery) acid. When I made my first attempts at anodising, it seemed to leave the aluminium alone (no doubt because of the oxide layer), so maybe that would attack the broken tap and not the aluminium alloy it was stuck in. I suppose an initial rinse in solvent would help, by getting rid of any cutting oil and allowing the chosen chemical to get at the steel.

Andy

roylowenthal <roylowenthal@...> wrote:
Yup! That's the same sodium bisulphate as the pH down product for
pools/spas. It's quicker than alum (any of the common variants) &
easy to get.

Roy

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Victoria Welch <wrlabs@...>
wrote:

On Thursday 05 April 2007, Ian Foster wrote:

G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium
Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that
substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do

the

work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the
sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium),

they

just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium
sulphate.
[ ... ]

Found this at my local homebrew store:

productid=285&cat=0&page=1

Would that work?

Convenient place to get to (something special in Seattle) and I do
already go there from time to time.

Embarrassed to admit what chemistry I did take has long since been
forgotten <blush>.

Thanks & take care, Vikki.
--
Victoria Welch, WV9K/7
It is my reading of history that Allah usually favours the army

with the

best firepower.-- The Warlord (_Ivory_, Mick Resnick)

---------------------------------
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G'day Ellis

Drilling from the tail stock is OK but the drill or chuck is held by a
taper. If the drill self feeds it breaker its grip with the taper and
slips. An exercise in futility. You have to keep cutting pressure om
the drill and the drill takes over so you can't restrict the feed rate.
A reamer is the way to go. Note that machine reamers have straight
flutes whilst hand reamers have spiral flutes.

One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Ellis Cory" <ellis103@...> wrote:

Roy wrote.....The practical problem is controlling the feed of a

large drill enlarging a hole; they tend to self feed at their spiral
rate..........

I believe this is only true with lever operated machines, such as

drill presses. Using the screw operated tailstock and only opening up
by 1/64" at a time should be very little problem. If necessary, the
lips could be 'backed' off in the same fashion as brass drills. Of
course, the quill travel is limited, so it's a case of drilling a bit,
move the tailstock a bit.

HTH
Ellis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Roy wrote.....The practical problem is controlling the feed of a large drill enlarging a hole; they tend to self feed at their spiral rate..........

I believe this is only true with lever operated machines, such as drill presses. Using the screw operated tailstock and only opening up by 1/64" at a time should be very little problem. If necessary, the lips could be 'backed' off in the same fashion as brass drills. Of course, the quill travel is limited, so it's a case of drilling a bit, move the tailstock a bit.
HTH
Ellis

Anyone else having problems trying to download files in the files
section?

On Thursday 05 April 2007, roylowenthal wrote:

Yup! That's the same sodium bisulphate as the pH down product for
pools/spas. It's quicker than alum (any of the common variants) &
easy to get.

Thankee Sir! Will head down there tomorrow, I only have a little of
that left in the homebrew supplies. Time to stock up for another batch
anyway. Unfortunately too late in the year to lager another batch out
on the balcony :(.

Take care, Vikki.

[ ... ]
Found this at my local homebrew store:

Would that work?
[ ... ]

--
Victoria Welch, WV9K/7
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things." --John S. Mill

Reaming it provides a smooth bore & ensures it's actually as big as
it claims to be.

Roy

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "born4something" <ajs@...>
wrote:

Hi Dan,

No such thing as a dumb question - unless you don't ask it! In that
vein, I'll ask my dumb question. If you have a 7x12 lathe, why do
you need to enlarge the spindle bore to fit 3/4" through? The off-
the-shelf bore is 20mm so you have very nearly 1mm to spare. Do you
have a burr or am I missing something?

John


--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "jumbo75007" <fullerdj@>
wrote:

AHH, good explaination. I understand the reason now.
Thanks,
Dan Fuller
Carrollton, Texas


--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "roylowenthal"

<roylowenthal@>

wrote:

A reamer takes less power to drive. For making the hole, a

drill

would do just as well, except a 13/16" drill bit requires more

torque

than the lathe can deliver; that's why drill bits cut more
aggressively than reamers.

Roy

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "jumbo75007" <fullerdj@>
wrote:

The practical problem is controlling the feed of a large drill
enlarging a hole; they tend to self feed at their spiral rate. It's
easier to control a reamer's feed.

Roy

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Ellis Cory" <ellis103@...> wrote:

Roy wrote..........A reamer takes less power to drive. For making the

hole, a drill would do just as well, except a 13/16" drill bit requires
more torque than the lathe can deliver..........

I'm not sure this is the full story. Reamers are fed at a much lower

rate and cutting speed. If a drill was fed at the same or slower rate,
then the cut could be made.

HTH
Ellis

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Victoria Welch <wrlabs@...>
wrote:

Embarrassed to admit what chemistry I did take has long since been
forgotten <blush>.

Hi Vikki,

Well, I didn't mention that when I sat my last chemistry exam I
burnt all my lecture notes BEFORE the results came back. No way I
was repeating that subject even if they did let me back!

Thirty odd years on, I design and manufacture industrial ozone
generating equipment. I still don't understand the chemistry but I
can tear O2 molecules apart with brute force (high voltages) and
even do titrations to measure the output with a recipe / cheat
sheet, courtesy of an industrial chemist on the west coast. But
understand it? What was Seargent Schultz's famous line?

John

Yup! That's the same sodium bisulphate as the pH down product for
pools/spas. It's quicker than alum (any of the common variants) &
easy to get.

Roy

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., Victoria Welch <wrlabs@...>
wrote:

On Thursday 05 April 2007, Ian Foster wrote:

G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium
Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that
substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do

the

work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the
sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium),

they

just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium
sulphate.
[ ... ]

Found this at my local homebrew store:

productid=285&cat=0&page=1

Would that work?

Convenient place to get to (something special in Seattle) and I do
already go there from time to time.

Embarrassed to admit what chemistry I did take has long since been
forgotten <blush>.

Thanks & take care, Vikki.
--
Victoria Welch, WV9K/7
It is my reading of history that Allah usually favours the army

with the

best firepower.-- The Warlord (_Ivory_, Mick Resnick)

Ian,

Am no chemist but have used Sodium Bisulphate (meta too I think) for
broken drills etc in gold, silver, and aluminium. For aluminium somewhat
dilute nitric would be faster but much harder to obtain these days and not
nearly as safe from a handling aspect. For gold and silver it saved my
reputation on a number of occasions in commercial shops.

Jeff

* REPLY SEPARATOR *

On 4/5/2007 at 11:37 PM Ian Foster wrote:

G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium
Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that
substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do the
work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the
sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium), they
just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium
sulphate.

In my discussions it can sound like the ions making up the repective
salts just combine in solution, this is not the case. The solution is
just a soup of dissociated ions which don't come together until they
become insoluble, either by their inherent properies (as for
insoluble salts like calcium carbonate) or by concentatration which
leads to crystalisation (as for common salt, sodium chloride).

In Oz you can readily obtain Sodium Metabisulphate for sterilising
home brew gear and for fruit preservation, Ive used it myself in that
role. The metabisulphate may have too high a pH to be effective.

Andy! Here's another chemical to test. Safer than making Gun Cotton!

One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...>
wrote:

Ian,

For some more info to confuse the chemistry freaks... the

jewellery

pickle is labelled " Sodium Bisulfate". The PH down might be

a 'sodium meta

bisulfate' but it is reported to be a cleaner (and cheaper)

replacement for

the jewellery standard Sparax brand. A totally different chemical

than alum

but it has worked for me in the past and is always available in my

studio.

Jeff

Be sure to check out for small mills and
lathes.
Yahoo! Groups Links





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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date: 4/4/2007

1:09 PM


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Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing


jdemand@...
-

On Thursday 05 April 2007, Ian Foster wrote:

G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium
Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that
substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do the
work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the
sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium), they
just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium
sulphate.
[ ... ]

Found this at my local homebrew store:



Would that work?

Convenient place to get to (something special in Seattle) and I do
already go there from time to time.

Embarrassed to admit what chemistry I did take has long since been
forgotten <blush>.

Thanks & take care, Vikki.
--
Victoria Welch, WV9K/7
It is my reading of history that Allah usually favours the army with the
best firepower.-- The Warlord (_Ivory_, Mick Resnick)

G'day Jeff, Andy, et al.
I'm not quite sure by your comments whether you have used Sodium
Bisulphate to extract broken taps. If you have then that
substantiates my assessment that it is the sulphate ions which do the
work. Being a bisulphate the iron ions do not need to displace the
sodium ions to form sodium hydroxide (corrosive to aluminium), they
just neutralise the solution forming iron sulphate and sodium
sulphate.

In my discussions it can sound like the ions making up the repective
salts just combine in solution, this is not the case. The solution is
just a soup of dissociated ions which don't come together until they
become insoluble, either by their inherent properies (as for
insoluble salts like calcium carbonate) or by concentatration which
leads to crystalisation (as for common salt, sodium chloride).

In Oz you can readily obtain Sodium Metabisulphate for sterilising
home brew gear and for fruit preservation, Ive used it myself in that
role. The metabisulphate may have too high a pH to be effective.

Andy! Here's another chemical to test. Safer than making Gun Cotton!

One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...>
wrote:

Ian,

For some more info to confuse the chemistry freaks... the

jewellery

pickle is labelled " Sodium Bisulfate". The PH down might be

a 'sodium meta

bisulfate' but it is reported to be a cleaner (and cheaper)

replacement for

the jewellery standard Sparax brand. A totally different chemical

than alum

but it has worked for me in the past and is always available in my

studio.

Jeff

Ian,

For some more info to confuse the chemistry freaks... the jewellery
pickle is labelled " Sodium Bisulfate". The PH down might be a 'sodium meta
bisulfate' but it is reported to be a cleaner (and cheaper) replacement for
the jewellery standard Sparax brand. A totally different chemical than alum
but it has worked for me in the past and is always available in my studio.
The Ph stuff will have to wait for testing... 6" of white shit today and
probably another 6" by morning, good thing I didn't store the snow blower
quite yet. Vermont CAN be interesting if you have a really twisted sense of
humour ;-)

Jeff

* REPLY SEPARATOR *

On 4/5/2007 at 10:15 PM Ian Foster wrote:

G'day Andy,
Perhaps you could do a few extra-curricular experiments.
Drill a hole in pieces of aluminium and then drive steel screws into
into each then. No need to thread the hole. Not quite the same as our
problem because there are no flutes for the electrolyte to pass
through; this may require some thought, eg grind flats on the side of
the screws.
I'd start with the cheapest and most readily accessible alum. Or get
what ever varieties are available and do comparative tests, hence the
number of pieces.

The trouble is we leave such experimentation until it is life and death
not an experiment.

Some how I think the straight aluminium sulphate may he the best. As I
said in an rearlier post the aluminium ions would deposit out of the
solution as Aluminium Hydroxide, whilst the hydroxides of potasium and
ammonia are water soluble and would attack the native aluminium.
But only experimentation will tell.

One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian






Be sure to check out for small mills and
lathes.
Yahoo! Groups Links





--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date: 4/4/2007

1:09 PM


-
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing


jdemand@...
-

G'day Andy,
Perhaps you could do a few extra-curricular experiments.
Drill a hole in pieces of aluminium and then drive steel screws into
into each then. No need to thread the hole. Not quite the same as our
problem because there are no flutes for the electrolyte to pass
through; this may require some thought, eg grind flats on the side of
the screws.
I'd start with the cheapest and most readily accessible alum. Or get
what ever varieties are available and do comparative tests, hence the
number of pieces.

The trouble is we leave such experimentation until it is life and death
not an experiment.

Some how I think the straight aluminium sulphate may he the best. As I
said in an rearlier post the aluminium ions would deposit out of the
solution as Aluminium Hydroxide, whilst the hydroxides of potasium and
ammonia are water soluble and would attack the native aluminium.
But only experimentation will tell.

One good turn deserves another.
Regards,
Ian

Thanks, Ian. My chemistry stopped with school "A-level" (the exams that qualify you for uni). We had opportunities for extra-curricular experiments making gun-cotton, benzedrine etc. Much more exciting than the H & S regulated stuff that they do now. Do you reckon "any old alum" will do the trick for taps stuck in aluminium, or should I be looking for "potash alum" or "ammonium alum"?

Andy





---------------------------------
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Hi Jeff,

What a neat idea. After the work's been buggered I can save the tap
to present to the tool store as evidence!

Yeah, Ian sorted me out on that. But I'm still not repeating CHEM-
101. <G>

John


--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@...>
wrote:

John,

No, you want the acid PH down. Remember that alkaline stuff eats
aluminium. Unless you really want to save the tap rather than the

work ;-)

Jeff

* REPLY SEPARATOR *

On 4/5/2007 at 4:41 AM born4something wrote:

--- In 7x12minilathe@..., "Jeff Demand" <jdemand@>
wrote:

And don't drink it, tastes awful and will rot your teeth ;-).

Hi Jeff,

How about dentures? <G>

More seriously, would I be correct in assuming this bag of

Alkalinity

Increaser I have in the corner would be the same stuff?

John

-
Demand Designs
Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing


jdemand@...
-