Re: Blade guide setup -- a question
Mark, Just had a chance to see your video, do you still have any plates for sale?
Wayne Sent from far far away
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Mar 2, 2022, at 8:48 AM, Mark <mark21056@...> wrote:
?On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 05:18 AM, John Vreede wrote:
Unfortunately mis-manufacture?when drilling the holes in the sawframe and pivot arm, or base pivot holes is distressingly common. It must vary by manufacturer, according to how much emphasis they put on the quality assurance around the drilling processes. but I estimate from what I've seen?that between 1 in 3 to 2 in 3 (!)
I suspect they make these saw in batches and dismantle a lot of the jigs when they move on to another product. If they get setup wrong for the next batch then they may make 200,000 saws (totally guessing on the amount, maybe way more) with a miss aligned pivot point. What a shame!?
My approach to fixing this problem was the elevate the stock by putting a 1/4" thick steel plate under the vice. I sell these plates but if somebody want to make there own here is a template.?
NOTE:? Make the part under the saw blade longer (red line) and cut through it after mounting the plate.
|
Re: Blade guide setup -- a question
On Wed, Mar 2, 2022 at 05:18 AM, John Vreede wrote:
Unfortunately mis-manufacture?when drilling the holes in the sawframe and pivot arm, or base pivot holes is distressingly common. It must vary by manufacturer, according to how much emphasis they put on the quality assurance around the drilling processes. but I estimate from what I've seen?that between 1 in 3 to 2 in 3 (!)
I suspect they make these saw in batches and dismantle a lot of the jigs when they move on to another product. If they get setup wrong for the next batch then they may make 200,000 saws (totally guessing on the amount, maybe way more) with a miss aligned pivot point. What a shame!?
My approach to fixing this problem was the elevate the stock by putting a 1/4" thick steel plate under the vice. I sell these plates but if somebody want to make there own here is a template.?
NOTE:? Make the part under the saw blade longer (red line) and cut through it after mounting the plate.
|
Re: Blade guide setup -- a question
Good that the new blade did fix your tracking problem Mark. I've read many times in wood bandsaw setup, that the positioning of the rear support roller is THE most important thing to set correctly (just skimming the back of the blade) for optimal cutting in wood, especially resawing (splitting a workpiece?along the grain). but I've found it's not so critical for a 4x6 - anywhere from just touching to ~0.040" clearance will work OK so long as the roller touches the blade back when the weight comes on in the cut. My recommendation for setting the rear support roller is that the blade should aim for touching at some points?in the revolution of the blade and not in others, sort of hit&miss around the blade (subject of course to it being able to complete the cut!). The blade back doesn't move about much on a wood bandsaw, so much that there is at least?one youtube clip saying you should use a die grinder to dress the back of the blade so there is absolutely?no variation for best cutting,? The blade back doesn't move about much on a 4x6 without?its guides either, just what variation is there from less than perfect?alignment?when it was welded, but it does change quite a lot when the guides are installed with upto 0.040" being quite normal.?? As Mark2 points out the saw will still work acceptably if it pushes the blade forward upto 1/8", but this does start to affect the tracking on the wheel nearest the forward guide.? Over 1/8", esp.on the bottom guide closest to the drive wheel, and the blade comes off the near wheel when you put any sort of bow weight (>3-4 lb) on in the cut, so it seriously slows down how fast the saw will cut. You should not have to do this unless it has been mis-manufactured and it won't complete the?cut. Unfortunately mis-manufacture?when drilling the holes in the sawframe and pivot arm, or base pivot holes is distressingly common. It must vary by manufacturer, according to how much emphasis they put on the quality assurance around the drilling processes. but I estimate from what I've seen?that between 1 in 3 to 2 in 3 (!) are in some way out badly enough to cause setup issues, and?maybe none are truly correct to the?engineering drawings.? They just don't seem to get it. I believe this is because there are so many adjustments available in the standard way these saws are made, that literally ANYTHING can be made?to cut, albeit not accurately or well. It's a sad fact?that if they were made accurately, I doubt there would be much need for this group - jv?
I looked for the video but didn't find it. The method I described just makes setting up the guides a little easier. The horizontal position of the guides isn't super critical. I think mine is deflected about an 1/8" but what is critical is the back bearings that rides on the back of the blade. Ideally they should not touch the blade until the saw is cutting. Again, this is ideal and there can be some pressure but not very much. On my saw Harbor Freight had the blade deflected over 1/4" downward. They did this to make the saw complete the cut instead of fixing it right. When I set the blade up close to being correct I encountered other problem. The head would not drop far enough to complete a cut. John Vreede is very good on these saw. He might explain this concept differently but I'm fairly sure he will agree that less blade deflection is always best. Hopefully your saw is not like mine. I sell a plate to correct this problem. I have one left but don't plan on making more unless there is a significant interest. Let me know if you need it and I'll send you a link,?
|
Re: Blade tracking problem
I was able to get my new blade tracking correctly, by paying a lot more attention to the initial setup for the idler wheel tilt mechanism.? My experience with this has shown that the shaft can be moved in and out quite a bit while still being able to (kinda, sorta) adjust the tracking, at least on the undriven wheel.? If the fixing screw is backed out too much the blade will ride too far forward on the drive wheel, even though it's still possible to adjust the tilt so the blade is in the right place on the upper wheel.
What I did was screw the fixing screw in as far as it would go (after backing out the tilt-adjusting screw) and then in an incremental fashion work on getting the tracking correct.? This way the fixing screw is backed out just enough to get enough tilt:? and now the blade rides just fine on both wheels.? There also is much less variation in the tracking as I change the blade tension.
The bottom line is that there's a _lot_ of adjustment range in the tilt mechanism, perhaps to accommodate large manufacturing tolerances:? but as a result it's easy to get into trouble.
I also spent a lot of time adjusting the guides and now the saw is cutting pretty square.? Not perfect, but better than it was.? I used the ruler-clipped-to-the-blade approach:? and it IS important to go back and forth between the upper and lower guides.? If one guide is way off there's no way to get the blade nearest the other one to be perfectly vertical (at least in my experience).
Mark
|
Re: Blade guide setup -- a question
I looked for the video but didn't find it. The method I described just makes setting up the guides a little easier. The horizontal position of the guides isn't super critical. I think mine is deflected about an 1/8" but what is critical is the back bearings that rides on the back of the blade. Ideally they should not touch the blade until the saw is cutting. Again, this is ideal and there can be some pressure but not very much. On my saw Harbor Freight had the blade deflected over 1/4" downward. They did this to make the saw complete the cut instead of fixing it right. When I set the blade up close to being correct I encountered other problem. The head would not drop far enough to complete a cut. John Vreede is very good on these saw. He might explain this concept differently but I'm fairly sure he will agree that less blade deflection is always best. Hopefully your saw is not like mine. I sell a plate to correct this problem. I have one left but don't plan on making more unless there is a significant interest. Let me know if you need it and I'll send you a link,?
|
Re: Blade guide setup -- a question
On Tue, Mar 1, 2022 at 03:22 PM, Mark Kimball wrote:
I didn't pick that up in the Pitkin bandsaw setup document; but perhaps that's a consequence of the described adjustment method?? Inquiring minds want to know :)
This was my video. Yes "blade neutral" is an excellent way to describe this. To me this was a very logical and proven method of setting up the saw but I did confirm this with other saw manufacturers. I have not seen Pitkin's setup doc but I suspect it may get the same result using a different method. I also found a video from Jet on setting up one of their industrial saws that said the same. Let me see if I can find the video. Also, please note: There are two other videos following my video you referenced. My saw was impossible to set up correctly. Some of these saws were made wrong and some are not. I put the original guard back in place and used an elevating plate to resolve the issue. I've been running the same blade for about a year now and I've cut a LOT of steel!? Here's part two:
|
Blade guide setup -- a question
While browsing the web looking for 4x6 bandsaw alignment information I came across some references to "blade neutral" setup.? Basically, the guides should twist the blade but not push it away from the center location (where it would go when the guides are removed.? For instance, see??at about 7:34 into it.? I didn't pick that up in the Pitkin bandsaw setup document; but perhaps that's a consequence of the described adjustment method?? Inquiring minds want to know :)
-Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
Can we drop by and help test the results???
-Dave
On Monday, February 28, 2022, 10:13:33 AM PST, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
??? ??? we will be waiting for your test report .
??? animal
On 2/28/2022 10:05 AM, Michael Conlee
wrote:
I like the idea of using a pressure cooker...? but i would have to
test the pressure cooker first by cooking some corned beef and
cabbage.....
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
Lots of good DIY solutions here.
I will admit to going commercial and just putting a longer hose on??Taped the hose to a paint stir stick to control the end of the hose.?I had originally bought it to bleed brakes without having to ask the wife for help.
As it turned out it sucked at bleeding brakes (am back to asking the wife for help) but works great for sucking other stuff up, like the oil in lathe gearboxes, etc. Yes, I need to empty the bowl several times go get all the lube out of the lathe gearbox, but that is not a showstopper issue.??
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
??? ??? we will be waiting for your test report .
??? animal
On 2/28/2022 10:05 AM, Michael Conlee
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I like the idea of using a pressure cooker...? but i would have to
test the pressure cooker first by cooking some corned beef and
cabbage.....
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
I like the idea of using a pressure cooker...? but i would have to test the pressure cooker first by cooking some corned beef and cabbage.....
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
"The wine builds up pressure as it ferments ? I would think there's probably all sorts of safe-guards around that stuff."
Yes there are safeguards.? Fermentation locks, basically the miniature equivalent of a plumbing P trap -- they allow gasses to escape, but keep oxygen and undesirable microbes out.? We have a lot of them.
Regarding pressure cooker gaskets, they are not round (or flat).? They have a "vee" shape.? I wish they WERE round or flat, because that "vee" is difficult to clean.? I don't like to throw stuff like that in a dishwasher because the detergent can be pretty aggressive toward some materials, and don't know if the gasket material is dishwasher safe or not.
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
??? ??? I think I've seen Some that were? just big o-rings , WW'
Graingers probably would have some or MSC
??? ??? animal
On 2/27/2022 8:00 PM, Dave Seiter
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I got a large, free pressure
cooker a few years back and converted it to a vacuum chamber,
but haven't used it for a real project yet.? I'm not sure what
I used for a gasket.? I remember ordering one from a canning
supply place, but it didn't fit correctly.??
-Dave
On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 06:00:54 PM PST, mike
allen <animal@...> wrote:
??? ??? It works real well . the reason I ran a tube
to the bottom of the pot on the intake was so it was
far enough from the suction side so I wouldn't be
pumping oil all over the place . I used the type with
the wing-nuts around the top . Thinking bout the
gaskets , I would think if teh gasket is bad maybe a
ring of silicone might seal it up ? The wine builds up
pressure as it ferments ? I would think there's
probably all sorts of safe-guards around that stuff.
??? ??? animal
On
2/27/2022 5:36 PM, Mark Kimball wrote:
I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker,
particularly since we were "gifted" with a couple of big
ones (even though we already HAD one).? It seems that
few use them these days.? At least for canning/cooking
:)? But that means they should be relatively easy to
find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals for the
major brands still are available -- typically the seals
on old pressure cookers are pretty much toast.
My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out
flammable stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there
and likely is a brushed type that generates lots of
sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that kind of thing I'd look at a
so-called "elephant's head", basically a two-hole
stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit
pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being
pushed out of the container.? Clearly, the stopper must
make a decent seal to the container opening.? I made one
for moving home-made wine around, and the pressure
source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT generates sparks
you're doing something very wrong....
In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to
operate the elephant's head typically is nitrogen or
carbon dioxide.? Either one would be pretty good for
pushing flammables around as well.? Keeping oxygen away
from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or CO2.
Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
I think I got a large O-ring somewhere that just happened to fit.? No need for the weights- it's a vacuum chamber now.??
-Dave
On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 08:06:22 PM PST, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:
If you have an Ace Hardware in your area, you can probably get a gasket from them. Also the weights and such. Bill in OKC William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) Aphorisms to live by: SEMPER GUMBY! Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome. Physics doesn't care about your schedule. The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 10:00:50 PM CST, Dave Seiter < d.seiter@...> wrote: I got a large, free pressure cooker a few years back and converted it to a vacuum chamber, but haven't used it for a real project yet.? I'm not sure what I used for a gasket.? I remember ordering one from a canning supply place, but it didn't fit correctly. -Dave On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 06:00:54 PM PST, mike allen < animal@...> wrote: ??? ??? It works real well . the reason I ran a tube to the bottom of the pot on the intake was so it was far enough from the suction side so I wouldn't be pumping oil all over the place . I used the type with the wing-nuts around the top . Thinking bout the gaskets , I would think if teh gasket is bad maybe a ring of silicone might seal it up ? The wine builds up pressure as it ferments ? I would think there's probably all sorts of safe-guards around that stuff. ??? ??? animal On 2/27/2022 5:36 PM, Mark Kimball wrote: I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker, particularly since we were "gifted" with a couple of big ones (even though we already HAD one).? It seems that few use them these days.? At least for canning/cooking :)? But that means they should be relatively easy to find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals for the major brands still are available -- typically the seals on old pressure cookers are pretty much toast. My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out flammable stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there and likely is a brushed type that generates lots of sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that kind of thing I'd look at a so-called "elephant's head", basically a two-hole stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being pushed out of the container.? Clearly, the stopper must make a decent seal to the container opening.? I made one for moving home-made wine around, and the pressure source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT generates sparks you're doing something very wrong.... In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to operate the elephant's head typically is nitrogen or carbon dioxide.? Either one would be pretty good for pushing flammables around as well. Keeping oxygen away from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or CO2. Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
If you have an Ace Hardware in your area, you can probably get a gasket from them. Also the weights and such.
Bill in OKC
William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)
Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 10:00:50 PM CST, Dave Seiter <d.seiter@...> wrote: I got a large, free pressure cooker a few years back and converted it to a vacuum chamber, but haven't used it for a real project yet.? I'm not sure what I used for a gasket.? I remember ordering one from a canning supply place, but it didn't fit correctly. -Dave On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 06:00:54 PM PST, mike allen <animal@...> wrote: ??? ??? It works real well . the reason I ran a tube to the bottom of the pot on the intake was so it was far enough from the suction side so I wouldn't be pumping oil all over the place . I used the type with the wing-nuts around the top . Thinking bout the gaskets , I would think if teh gasket is bad maybe a ring of silicone might seal it up ? The wine builds up pressure as it ferments ? I would think there's probably all sorts of safe-guards around that stuff. ??? ??? animal On 2/27/2022 5:36 PM, Mark Kimball wrote: I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker, particularly since we were "gifted" with a couple of big ones (even though we already HAD one).? It seems that few use them these days.? At least for canning/cooking :)? But that means they should be relatively easy to find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals for the major brands still are available -- typically the seals on old pressure cookers are pretty much toast. My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out flammable stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there and likely is a brushed type that generates lots of sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that kind of thing I'd look at a so-called "elephant's head", basically a two-hole stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being pushed out of the container.? Clearly, the stopper must make a decent seal to the container opening.? I made one for moving home-made wine around, and the pressure source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT generates sparks you're doing something very wrong.... In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to operate the elephant's head typically is nitrogen or carbon dioxide.? Either one would be pretty good for pushing flammables around as well. Keeping oxygen away from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or CO2. Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
I got a large, free pressure cooker a few years back and converted it to a vacuum chamber, but haven't used it for a real project yet.? I'm not sure what I used for a gasket.? I remember ordering one from a canning supply place, but it didn't fit correctly.??
-Dave
On Sunday, February 27, 2022, 06:00:54 PM PST, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:
??? ??? It works real well . the reason I ran a tube to the
bottom of the pot on the intake was so it was far enough from the
suction side so I wouldn't be pumping oil all over the place . I
used the type with the wing-nuts around the top . Thinking bout
the gaskets , I would think if teh gasket is bad maybe a ring of
silicone might seal it up ? The wine builds up pressure as it
ferments ? I would think there's probably all sorts of safe-guards
around that stuff.
??? ??? animal
On 2/27/2022 5:36 PM, Mark Kimball
wrote:
I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker, particularly
since we were "gifted" with a couple of big ones (even though we
already HAD one).? It seems that few use them these days.? At
least for canning/cooking :)? But that means they should be
relatively easy to find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals
for the major brands still are available -- typically the seals on
old pressure cookers are pretty much toast.
My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out flammable
stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there and likely is a
brushed type that generates lots of sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that
kind of thing I'd look at a so-called "elephant's head", basically
a two-hole stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit
pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being pushed out of
the container.? Clearly, the stopper must make a decent seal to
the container opening.? I made one for moving home-made wine
around, and the pressure source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT
generates sparks you're doing something very wrong....
In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to operate the
elephant's head typically is nitrogen or carbon dioxide.? Either
one would be pretty good for pushing flammables around as well.?
Keeping oxygen away from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or
CO2.
Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
??? ??? It works real well . the reason I ran a tube to the
bottom of the pot on the intake was so it was far enough from the
suction side so I wouldn't be pumping oil all over the place . I
used the type with the wing-nuts around the top . Thinking bout
the gaskets , I would think if teh gasket is bad maybe a ring of
silicone might seal it up ? The wine builds up pressure as it
ferments ? I would think there's probably all sorts of safe-guards
around that stuff.
??? ??? animal
On 2/27/2022 5:36 PM, Mark Kimball
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker, particularly
since we were "gifted" with a couple of big ones (even though we
already HAD one).? It seems that few use them these days.? At
least for canning/cooking :)? But that means they should be
relatively easy to find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals
for the major brands still are available -- typically the seals on
old pressure cookers are pretty much toast.
My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out flammable
stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there and likely is a
brushed type that generates lots of sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that
kind of thing I'd look at a so-called "elephant's head", basically
a two-hole stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit
pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being pushed out of
the container.? Clearly, the stopper must make a decent seal to
the container opening.? I made one for moving home-made wine
around, and the pressure source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT
generates sparks you're doing something very wrong....
In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to operate the
elephant's head typically is nitrogen or carbon dioxide.? Either
one would be pretty good for pushing flammables around as well.?
Keeping oxygen away from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or
CO2.
Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
Need to add that you don't want to use much pressure to operate an elephant's head.? You don't want to split the seams of your container, destroy your expensive oak barrel or break your carboy if it contains wine.? It doesn't take too many square inches of surface area to add up to a lot of force, even with a relatively small pressure differential.? I always thought about that as I was pumping processing chambers down to very low pressures.? Thousands of pounds of force were applied to the doors of some of them.? The largest tool I personally operated had close to 2,000 pounds holding the chamber door closed....
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
I like the idea of an old canner-pressure cooker, particularly since we were "gifted" with a couple of big ones (even though we already HAD one).? It seems that few use them these days.? At least for canning/cooking :)? But that means they should be relatively easy to find at the thrift store or Goodwill.? Seals for the major brands still are available -- typically the seals on old pressure cookers are pretty much toast.
My scheme using a shop vac isn't suited for sucking out flammable stuff, since the shop-vac motor is right there and likely is a brushed type that generates lots of sparks (ka-BOOM!).? For that kind of thing I'd look at a so-called "elephant's head", basically a two-hole stopper arrangement -- one of the holes is to admit pressurized gas and the other for the liquid being pushed out of the container.? Clearly, the stopper must make a decent seal to the container opening.? I made one for moving home-made wine around, and the pressure source was a bicycle pump.? If THAT generates sparks you're doing something very wrong....
In the wine industry, the pressurized gas used to operate the elephant's head typically is nitrogen or carbon dioxide.? Either one would be pretty good for pushing flammables around as well.? Keeping oxygen away from your wine is desirable, hence the N2 or CO2.
Mark
|
Re: Oil and general fluid sucker
??? ??? I made something like that years ago using a old
refrigerator compressor & thrift store pressure cooker? . Two
holes in the top of the pressure? ,? one hooks up to the suction
side of the compressor & the other hooks up to another fitting
in the top of the pressure cooker with a tube inside that go's
down @ a inch off the bottom? of the pressure cooker , Fire up the
compressor & let her go . Got sick of the mess changing oil in
the boat . Works pretty darn good .
animal
On 2/27/2022 2:40 PM, Mark Kimball
wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
Some time back I made an attachment for my shop vac that makes it
easy to suck fluids like motor oil, gear oil and the like out of
engines or other machinery.? Today I used it to suck the old gear
oil out of my bandsaw's transmission, and it occurred to me that
others might find the idea useful.? Consider the always-messy job
of replacing motor oil in those small engine appliances like
lawnmowers -- this guy makes it easy and mess-free.? Same for
those badly-designed drain ports for things like ATF and power
steering fluids.
I've attached a photo of it:
It consists of a bucket with a decent lid, a few pipe/tubing
fittings, two lengths of plastic tubing and a shop vac.? The basic
principle is that the shop vac pulls a vacuum inside the bucket,
and the fluid is sucked into the bucket via a plastic tube dipped
into whatever you want to empty out.? The waste fluid drops into
the bucket, not the shop vac so it is easy to dump into a jug for
recycling or sending off to the dump.
To make it I drilled two holes in the bucket lid -- a small one
for a brass fitting with a ferrule on one end and threaded on the
other.? The threaded end is screwed into the hole.? This is where
the waste oil enters.? The second hole is larger, made with a hole
saw and a plastic bulkhead fitting is installed.? I also turned an
aluminum sleeve and glued it into the external side to adapt it to
the hose end of my shop vac.? Different shop vacs have
different-sized hose ends so other folks who try this need to size
that part accordingly.
It took about 30 seconds to suck most of the gear oil out of the
transmission box.
If I were to make another one I would make a reinforcing ring out
of aluminum or steel and size it to fit about halfway down the
inside of the bucket.? Cheap plastic buckets tend to collapse
under the force of the vacuum.....
The pumpkins play no part in the fluid sucker's operation :).
Mark
|
Mark
John Vreede
Bill in OKC too